[ Poll ] Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans		16.1%	[ 897 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative		12.1%	[ 674 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance		6.1%	[ 340 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone		23.6%	[ 1314 ]
Not at all		30.9%	[ 1724 ]
I don't know		11.2%	[ 625 ]

Total Votes: 5574

[NecHocNecIllud]

Ziporae

First I would like to give the author of this thread immense kudos for that post which is very infortmative and structured. I am supportive of transgenders. I started thinking about the topic a lot after I read a novel recently called Luna. I would suggest it to anybody who doesn't understand where transgenders are coming from or anybody interested in the way it works. There is a lot to this issue and I don't believe there is enough awareness. The way I see it the body is just a vessel for the soul.. When the body you are in doesn't coincide I could definately see how that could cause a large dose of distress.

I recommend Luna too as a first stop for non-trans folk starting to explore the issue.

[Blairnensha]

Recursive Paradox

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Transwoman is a classification of woman. Like how lapdogs are a subset of dogs. Is there a lapdog that is not a dog? I don't think so.

[Kaosgirl]

Spoot-Breaker

I pop my head in here for the first time in a couple of months and there's an argument.

Sweet Jews for Jesus, you lot just can't leave each other alone for five minutes.

What, you would prefer we were all senseless drones with no thoughts or conviction in our opinions?

I mean sure, it would make the place a bit calmer. But (for Firefly fans) when the Alliance tried to pull that off it had some rather terrible consequences...

[Kaosgirl]

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Aino Ailill

"Systemic means it's characteristic to the social structure, literally built into it."

And the ridicule and physical punishment that male persons receive from fellow males and from females when they fail to appropriately live up to their assigned masculine role is not built into the social structure?

Good point. I'll reassess things, right after I've gotten a real amount of sleep and then a little coffee.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

*Gets her sparkly lip gloss and short short skirt.*

Should I put my hair up or have it down? I never can figure out which looks better for dancing. x_x

Down down DOWN! scream It's so much fun to whip around! 4laugh

Everyone loves my hair down. XD I have to use ten billion bobby pins to get it to not turn into a poofy curl monster though.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

I'm proud to say I've always liked her. : D

I'm proud to say she called me a sarcastic c**t. XD Next goal: Getting Tererun to call me a stupid cumdumpster. IT'S HARDER THAN YOU THINK.

Tererun scares me. D8

She's surprisingly cuddly if you give her cookies. But if you stop she'll try to chew her way into your liver.

Rosetta Celestine

This reminds me of the time I tried on my boyfriend's clothes in front of him. It was so... validating that I looked so silly in them. Even in men's clothing I still look like a girl. He thought I looked adorable and it really made me more confident in my femininity. It's like proof I can't go back.

I'm just so happy that I can go androgynous tomboy and wear seriously baggy clothes and still look physically feminine. It really fills me with joy, yanno?

YAY for hard to hide femininity!

If I start muttering profanities at you two, rest assured it's just jealousy gonk

[Syndactyly]

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Transwoman is a classification of woman. Like how lapdogs are a subset of dogs. Is there a lapdog that is not a dog? I don't think so.

That's how I saw it. I don't get my panties in a bunch when someone calls me a transman. They're still calling me a man. Although it WILL bother me if I am in a room and everyone thinks I'm cis and someone calls me trans. It's essentially saying, "GUESS WAT GUISE, HE HAS A v****a." Thanks. Thanks a lot.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Women can be an emotional/psychological threat to men. And a physical threat to some men, also depending on the woman in question.

None of this is systemic. Ergo not oppression.

It doesn't have to be systemic to be oppression. Try again. D:<

Yes. Yes it does.

"Yes it does," proves nothing, and is merely your word against mine.

I thought you wanted one of those arguments where we both go, "YU HUH", "NU UH!" over and over and over. XD

Quote:

Now it's going to be your word against Merriam:

*buzzer sounds*

Wrong. Merriam is not an authority on academic usage. Dictionaries are layman terminology sources. The rare times they get it right related to academic terminology is when they say, "see science for real definition"

Quote:

Ah, that makes sense. But is it really that offensive or harmful if they are together in one word? I mosty put them together because I think "trans woman" looks more messy than "transwoman."

It's intensely offensive to me. Quite a few others. And it is used by a very large component of the population to other me as a "not true" woman. I.e. not a woman who is trans but this new third gendered thing called a transwoman. It's ******** up.

Quote:

I know what fake surprise looks like, most people are not very good actors.

You'd be surprised. People have a lot of practice with lying. XD We do live in America after all.

Quote:

While only a small group of women "hate" men, a lot of women say hateful and sexist things about men.

Proof?

Quote:

And when I do state that I have an issue with it they pull the, "You're verbally abusing me! You're just telling me I can't say that because I'm a woman!" card.

So this is just anecdotal then? Are you confusing sexist things with say, true things? Like the fact that many women don't trust men because men don't wear signs that say, "good" and "bad" ergo forcing folk to make a judgment call that could get them raped?

A lot of guys get super whiny at that, but it's honestly true. There's no way to know whether someone you've met is a rapist and good god do a lot of women get raped by men on a regular basis. The numbers are ridiculous. I can't blame folk for being cautious.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

Ewww. But that would look horrible. I'd be willing to buy another pair that was already a different color. I almost got a white pair but they get scuffed and dirty really easily. My friend has a red and black pair, those are the sex.

I want a pair of dark purple boots.

Rosetta Celestine

YAY for hard to hide femininity!

It's been a huge godsend for me. Cuz you know how tomboyish I am. I basically couldn't pull off the clothing I wanted to wear without looking awful to myself before.

Now I look awesome. XD

Blairnensha

Synthesizing this from what has been said so far; not sure how accurate it is.

If a person goes against the rules, norms, whatever, of the group they are in, they don't change the group, they exclude themselves from it.

Worse, they may reinforce that particular norm as others see the consequences of going against it. (ridicule is a VERY powerful disincentive.)

Pointing the finger at men in general won't help anything. I don't really know how it is possible to change what the overall group does; I think a good bet is to create a new group or 'sub-group' which contravenes those norms specifically, then offer incentives to identify with that group over the other one. Example: the stereotype that gays and metrosexuals get more attention from people with boobs.

That's probably the most key way. Ridicule is less effective if you roll with a crew who's just as capable of dishing it out. A subculture or community can protect those who dissent and others will follow stealing strength from the prime group.

[Recursive Paradox]

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Transwoman is a classification of woman. Like how lapdogs are a subset of dogs. Is there a lapdog that is not a dog? I don't think so.

Considering how often society splits women into: women and transwomen (not cis women and trans women) it really isn't the same and it really is a giant issue of othering language.

We also do a lot of s**t with naming of animals that we shouldn't do with people. Dogs don't get last names. Dogs are often organized by breed not for individual aspects.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

I don't get my panties in a bunch when someone calls me a transman.

Don't those panties put a bit of pressure on your junk?

Quote:

They're still calling me a man.

*shrug*

They're separating you from men by making it so you don't have a claim to the word man separate from the word trans. You're considered a semi man, a pseudo man to them. That's what the language came from. It may not always have that aspect now, but it's still deeply offensive due to that history. At least to me.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

I too am surprised by the amount of support I've gotten in my transition. The haters really are a small group of people.

In college things have been great. Small town folk on the other hand find me to be an abomination.

Kaosgirl

If I start muttering profanities at you two, rest assured it's just jealousy gonk

Don't be jealous, you're a hot goth which is just ridiculously even more hot than normal hot. Seriously. I can't compete with that. I'm just a indie chick.

[Rosetta Celestine]

Sometimes a word is just a word.

[Blairnensha]

Rosetta Celestine

Sometimes a word is just a word.

Only when it's meaningless, and even then, it generally sounds like other words.

[Yaminon]

Sigh.

I'm a little frustrated.

I generally try to educate people about transgender issues by explaining it's a disconnect to the body. People seem to get it that way -- and it is understood more easily that way. Of course the issue is more complicated than that, but cisgender people don't always need to know everything about us.

Anyway, one of the ways that people try to explain transgender to people *OFTEN* is by talking about some sort of ~soul~ or something. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in souls. There is some sort of chemical or hormonal or structural cause for having a transgender experience in one's life, and it has nothing to do with the supernatural. I don't like to have to disagree with people when it comes to their own experiences, especially if that's what they believe in, but when I have to do panels and discussions with other trans people it makes me very uncomfortable.

I feel like it illegitimizes the reality of being transgender. It takes away the medical and the scientific and it puts in a spiritual cause where it does not belong. I don't want to be rude and deny people their beliefs, but I feel like education is not the time and place to try and convince people that there is some sort of male and female soul.

I don't know what to do ._.

[Blairnensha]

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Transwoman is a classification of woman. Like how lapdogs are a subset of dogs. Is there a lapdog that is not a dog? I don't think so.

Considering how often society splits women into: women and transwomen (not cis women and trans women) it really isn't the same and it really is a giant issue of othering language.

We also do a lot of s**t with naming of animals that we shouldn't do with people. Dogs don't get last names. Dogs are often organized by breed not for individual aspects.

My family doesn't; Presto is registered with our last name, and my dad talks about his personality as an individual.

But humans are often organized by social, ethnic, and age boundaries. I don't see how...

Meh.

Okay, you win. Just smack me if I slip up.

[Blairnensha]

Yaminon

Sigh.

I'm a little frustrated.

I generally try to educate people about transgender issues by explaining it's a disconnect to the body. People seem to get it that way -- and it is understood more easily that way. Of course the issue is more complicated than that, but cisgender people don't always need to know everything about us.

Anyway, one of the ways that people try to explain transgender to people *OFTEN* is by talking about some sort of ~soul~ or something. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in souls. There is some sort of chemical or hormonal or structural cause for having a transgender experience in one's life, and it has nothing to do with the supernatural. I don't like to have to disagree with people when it comes to their own experiences, especially if that's what they believe in, but when I have to do panels and discussions with other trans people it makes me very uncomfortable.

I feel like it illegitimizes the reality of being transgender. It takes away the medical and the scientific and it puts in a spiritual cause where it does not belong. I don't want to be rude and deny people their beliefs, but I feel like education is not the time and place to try and convince people that there is some sort of male and female soul.

I don't know what to do ._.

I recommend the 3-stage process:
1) Treat them as equals who are simply uninformed
2) If that doesn't work, treat them as children who need teaching
3) If that doesn't work, treat them like idiots.

This method maximizes your chances of successfully informing them while minimizing the grief you suffer in the event of failure.