[ Poll ] Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans		16.0%	[ 899 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative		12.1%	[ 680 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance		6.1%	[ 340 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone		23.6%	[ 1323 ]
Not at all		30.9%	[ 1734 ]
I don't know		11.2%	[ 627 ]

Total Votes: 5603

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Women can be an emotional/psychological threat to men. And a physical threat to some men, also depending on the woman in question.

None of this is systemic. Ergo not oppression.

It doesn't have to be systemic to be oppression. Try again. D:<

Yes. Yes it does.

Unless you mean oppress like, "THIS HEAT IS OPPRESSIVE". And then we're just totally out of any meaning there.

Quote:

As for hte rest, I'm just going to agree to disagree, there's no getting through to you.

heart

Quote:

Curious: Why should the words be spread?

Transwomen vs. trans women
and
Crossdresser vs. cross dresser

I never understood which was correct.

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Quote:

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Are you sure? I can't be sure I'm taken as a cis woman. I can only theorize based on the fact that people treat me better than they did when it was really obvious I was trans. But we both could have ended up in less transphobic areas, right?

I'm sure because a lot of those people are later "suprised" to find out I am indeed trans. I know I live in a very transphobic/homophobic place right now.

I know some people act surprised when they find out so that things don't get awkward but that's fair. A transphobic area would reveal s**t pretty quickly.

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I do recall pointing out that this doesn't include intersection. Just men as a social class. And it's absolutely true. You've proven nothing on this so far with your definitions and wikis and bears oh my.

Radical feminists vs. men. They target men as a group. A lot of women can say horribly sexist things about men and it's okay 'cause they're "oppressed." neutral

Actually (and thankfully) it's only a very small (very ******** out of this universe) subset of radical feminists that hate men (and trans folk of every type, and women who act in porn, like porn, do sex work, etc). They possess no power, are unable to create systemic oppression and can at most create isolated incidents of harm (or just be really annoying and awful to people)

Btw, it isn't okay if any woman says something sexist about men. Don't let that s**t slide.

[Spoot-Breaker]

I pop my head in here for the first time in a couple of months and there's an argument.

Sweet Jews for Jesus, you lot just can't leave each other alone for five minutes.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

I want to be one of the only men in that club to be in hooker boots. It would be less fun if everyone was wearing them.

Spray paint them pink. That'll work.

Kaosgirl

If it's not goth-friendly, I'm not coming in the first place razz

If it isn't goth-friendly, we'll beat it into friendliness.

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

Aino, you rock for finding all the posts but everyone's gonna be pissed at you for starting the convo up again. XD

Blairnensha

Blairnensha

Soph: individuals can't take responsibility for a leaderless group, so blaming a group is pointless. Umm... Yeah that's all I got fa now.

I don't remember what that was towards. XD

Pointing the finger at men is ... pointless .... because there's nothing they can do about it individually which will affect the whole.

It's a leaderless group.

We can all do something about it. That's all that matters.

I'm still not sure what I was saying that you responded to. Um... okay? I agree! With whatever it is you mean.

Miss Skuld

What do you guys think when a transsexual makes a fool of themselves on the Jerry Springer show?

I don't watch trash tv.

[Recursive Paradox]

Aino Ailill

"Systemic means it's characteristic to the social structure, literally built into it."

And the ridicule and physical punishment that male persons receive from fellow males and from females when they fail to appropriately live up to their assigned masculine role is not built into the social structure?

Good point. I'll reassess things, right after I've gotten a real amount of sleep and then a little coffee.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Also, I don't know what the ******** happened in the last 30 pages and I don't wanna know. Hey Rosetta, let's go clubbing while the dust settles. Brb getting eyeliner and low cut shirt.

*Gets her sparkly lip gloss and short short skirt.*

Should I put my hair up or have it down? I never can figure out which looks better for dancing. x_x

Down down DOWN! scream It's so much fun to whip around! 4laugh

Everyone loves my hair down. XD I have to use ten billion bobby pins to get it to not turn into a poofy curl monster though.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

Syndactyly

Rosetta Celestine

This is just a simple fact of teh internets.

Trudat. Off and on I've had trouble with her. But I've learned that, dude, she's just poking fun most of the time, and when she's arguing, she's usually right. Pretty much anything I've disagreed with her on I realized later I was only arguing because of my pride.

I'm proud to say I've always liked her. : D

I'm proud to say she called me a sarcastic c**t. XD Next goal: Getting Tererun to call me a stupid cumdumpster. IT'S HARDER THAN YOU THINK.

Tererun scares me. D8

She's surprisingly cuddly if you give her cookies. But if you stop she'll try to chew her way into your liver.

Rosetta Celestine

This reminds me of the time I tried on my boyfriend's clothes in front of him. It was so... validating that I looked so silly in them. Even in men's clothing I still look like a girl. He thought I looked adorable and it really made me more confident in my femininity. It's like proof I can't go back.

I'm just so happy that I can go androgynous tomboy and wear seriously baggy clothes and still look physically feminine. It really fills me with joy, yanno?

[Recursive Paradox]

Spoot-Breaker

I pop my head in here for the first time in a couple of months and there's an argument.

Sweet Jews for Jesus, you lot just can't leave each other alone for five minutes.

You missed us going clubbing. TOO LATE.

[Syndactyly]

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Women can be an emotional/psychological threat to men. And a physical threat to some men, also depending on the woman in question.

None of this is systemic. Ergo not oppression.

It doesn't have to be systemic to be oppression. Try again. D:<

Yes. Yes it does.

"Yes it does," proves nothing, and is merely your word against mine.

Now it's going to be your word against Merriam:

Quote:

Main Entry: op·pres·sion
Pronunciation: ə-ˈpre-shən
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power
2 : a sense of being weighed down in body or mind : depression

Main Entry: op·press
Pronunciation: ə-ˈpres
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French oppresser, from Latin oppressus, past participle of opprimere, from ob- against + premere to press — more at ob-, press
Date: 14th century
1 a archaic : suppress b : to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority
2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon

Neither definition states that it must be systemic or outside of the group being oppressed to be considered oppression.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

Curious: Why should the words be spread?

Transwomen vs. trans women
and
Crossdresser vs. cross dresser

I never understood which was correct.

The reason why trans woman ought to be split (crossdresser can be kept together) is because of exclusionary language structure.

I'm not a transwoman. I'm a woman who is transgender. A transgender woman. Shortened to a trans woman. Me being a woman is the first and foremost important thing. Trans is a descriptor attached to the concept of woman. Combing the words creates a word that is different from woman and separate, excluded. Even if it's not being done on purpose, it's something that just makes me really twitchy.

Ah, that makes sense. But is it really that offensive or harmful if they are together in one word? I mosty put them together because I think "trans woman" looks more messy than "transwoman."

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

Quote:

Are you sure? I can't be sure I'm taken as a cis woman. I can only theorize based on the fact that people treat me better than they did when it was really obvious I was trans. But we both could have ended up in less transphobic areas, right?

I'm sure because a lot of those people are later "suprised" to find out I am indeed trans. I know I live in a very transphobic/homophobic place right now.

I know some people act surprised when they find out so that things don't get awkward but that's fair. A transphobic area would reveal s**t pretty quickly.

I know what fake surprise looks like, most people are not very good actors.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

Quote:

I do recall pointing out that this doesn't include intersection. Just men as a social class. And it's absolutely true. You've proven nothing on this so far with your definitions and wikis and bears oh my.

Radical feminists vs. men. They target men as a group. A lot of women can say horribly sexist things about men and it's okay 'cause they're "oppressed." neutral

Actually (and thankfully) it's only a very small (very ******** out of this universe) subset of radical feminists that hate men (and trans folk of every type, and women who act in porn, like porn, do sex work, etc). They possess no power, are unable to create systemic oppression and can at most create isolated incidents of harm (or just be really annoying and awful to people)

Btw, it isn't okay if any woman says something sexist about men. Don't let that s**t slide.

While only a small group of women "hate" men, a lot of women say hateful and sexist things about men. And when I do state that I have an issue with it they pull the, "You're verbally abusing me! You're just telling me I can't say that because I'm a woman!" card.

[Syndactyly]

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

I want to be one of the only men in that club to be in hooker boots. It would be less fun if everyone was wearing them.

Spray paint them pink. That'll work.

Ewww. But that would look horrible. I'd be willing to buy another pair that was already a different color. I almost got a white pair but they get scuffed and dirty really easily. My friend has a red and black pair, those are the sex.

Recursive Paradox

Miss Skuld

What do you guys think when a transsexual makes a fool of themselves on the Jerry Springer show?

I don't watch trash tv.

I do. I LOVE Steve Wilkos. surprised

[Syndactyly]

Spoot-Breaker

I pop my head in here for the first time in a couple of months and there's an argument.

Sweet Jews for Jesus, you lot just can't leave each other alone for five minutes.

Bad timing. We were just joking around a few minutes ago.

[Rosetta Celestine]

Spoot-Breaker

I pop my head in here for the first time in a couple of months and there's an argument.

Sweet Jews for Jesus, you lot just can't leave each other alone for five minutes.

Well, I've managed to stay out of most of it.

[Rosetta Celestine]

Recursive Paradox

Aino Ailill

"Systemic means it's characteristic to the social structure, literally built into it."

And the ridicule and physical punishment that male persons receive from fellow males and from females when they fail to appropriately live up to their assigned masculine role is not built into the social structure?

Good point. I'll reassess things, right after I've gotten a real amount of sleep and then a little coffee.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Also, I don't know what the ******** happened in the last 30 pages and I don't wanna know. Hey Rosetta, let's go clubbing while the dust settles. Brb getting eyeliner and low cut shirt.

*Gets her sparkly lip gloss and short short skirt.*

Should I put my hair up or have it down? I never can figure out which looks better for dancing. x_x

Down down DOWN! scream It's so much fun to whip around! 4laugh

Everyone loves my hair down. XD I have to use ten billion bobby pins to get it to not turn into a poofy curl monster though.

Rosetta Celestine

Recursive Paradox

Rosetta Celestine

Syndactyly

Trudat. Off and on I've had trouble with her. But I've learned that, dude, she's just poking fun most of the time, and when she's arguing, she's usually right. Pretty much anything I've disagreed with her on I realized later I was only arguing because of my pride.

I'm proud to say I've always liked her. : D

I'm proud to say she called me a sarcastic c**t. XD Next goal: Getting Tererun to call me a stupid cumdumpster. IT'S HARDER THAN YOU THINK.

Tererun scares me. D8

She's surprisingly cuddly if you give her cookies. But if you stop she'll try to chew her way into your liver.

Rosetta Celestine

This reminds me of the time I tried on my boyfriend's clothes in front of him. It was so... validating that I looked so silly in them. Even in men's clothing I still look like a girl. He thought I looked adorable and it really made me more confident in my femininity. It's like proof I can't go back.

I'm just so happy that I can go androgynous tomboy and wear seriously baggy clothes and still look physically feminine. It really fills me with joy, yanno?

YAY for hard to hide femininity!

[Autie Lady]

I read Thomas Beatie's book a month or so ago and I started thinking about it again after reading your thread. (Thomas Beatie is "the pregenant man" wink

You know what? I decided good for him and good for his kid. That kid is deeply loved, valued, and planned for. I'd rather care about those three things than what gender the child's parents are or have been.

Just a random comment, lol, sorry.

[Syndactyly]

Autie Lady

I read Thomas Beatie's book a month or so ago and I started thinking about it again after reading your thread. (Thomas Beatie is "the pregenant man")

You know what? I decided good for him and good for his kid. That kid is deeply loved, valued, and planned for. I'd rather care about those three things than what gender the child's parents are or have been.

Just a random comment, lol, sorry.

He wrote a book? =o Wonder why I've never seen it in the TG section... Think it was thrown into autobiography instead?

I think the only problem that kid is gonna have is that he or she (I don't know what he kid is, lol) is going to be teased by ignorant people their entire life. :/

[Blairnensha]

Synthesizing this from what has been said so far; not sure how accurate it is.

If a person goes against the rules, norms, whatever, of the group they are in, they don't change the group, they exclude themselves from it.

Worse, they may reinforce that particular norm as others see the consequences of going against it. (ridicule is a VERY powerful disincentive.)

Pointing the finger at men in general won't help anything. I don't really know how it is possible to change what the overall group does; I think a good bet is to create a new group or 'sub-group' which contravenes those norms specifically, then offer incentives to identify with that group over the other one. Example: the stereotype that gays and metrosexuals get more attention from people with boobs.

[Autie Lady]

Syndactyly

Autie Lady

I read Thomas Beatie's book a month or so ago and I started thinking about it again after reading your thread. (Thomas Beatie is "the pregenant man")

You know what? I decided good for him and good for his kid. That kid is deeply loved, valued, and planned for. I'd rather care about those three things than what gender the child's parents are or have been.

Just a random comment, lol, sorry.

He wrote a book? =o Wonder why I've never seen it in the TG section... Think it was thrown into autobiography instead?

I think the only problem that kid is gonna have is that he or she (I don't know what he kid is, lol) is going to be teased by ignorant people their entire life. :/

I found it at clearance at Barnes and Nobles. He does talk about some of the horrible hate mail he's been sent but has also recieved unexpected support. It's a good read.

[Syndactyly]

I too am surprised by the amount of support I've gotten in my transition. The haters really are a small group of people.