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Register to reply| Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans |    |
16.1% | [ 889 ] |
| Yes- I have a trans friend or relative | |
12.1% | [ 670 ] |
| Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance | |
6.1% | [ 338 ] |
| Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone | |
23.7% | [ 1309 ] |
| Not at all | |
30.8% | [ 1703 ] |
| I don't know | |
11.2% | [ 619 ] |
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Agent Cougar Draven Ythan II I do not personally feel that the my vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. Fixed. |
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Syndactyly Recursive Paradox Syndactyly Recursive Paradox Quote: As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>; Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O How? Women's bodies are construed as owned, we're raped far, far more often than men are, we make less money, are harassed more, our views are construed as less valid, etc etc etc. Men do in fact have privilege over women cuz masculinity is treated as higher than femininity. It's why people beat the s**t out of trans women and mostly just ignore trans guys. It is expected for femininity to be shed. Attempting to gain it goes against the ideology of our culture. But women do not have the social power to enforce these stereotypes. Only men do. Quote: When a man doesn't meet these stereotypes, he is beat down, neglected, and his masculinity is questioned. At worst, he is questioned or treated somewhat badly by some. Women in violation of gender roles are raped, harassed and beaten for it. Quote: If he doesn't meet these expectations he is oppressed in a way very much how women are. And not because "he's like a woman" but because he don't meet the ridiculous standards of manhood. The degree of effects of his actions don't even come close. You gotta keep in mind, if you're basing this on your own experiences, you're a trans guy. That's a huge confounding variable. Your gender is considered infinitely more in question than any cis person's, so you will face things no cis man even has to consider. Quote: No, you don't have to be "separate" from a class to oppress it. Yes you do. By definition. The sky isn't the sky when it's made of rocks and under our feet. Dur. Quote: Hmmm, I suppose that's a good idea. Damn right it is XD |
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Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. |
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Ythan II Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. Just cuz we deal with a bunch of ******** up s**t regarding gender doesn't mean we can describe it in objective, scientific and conceptual terms. A victim of assault is not going to understand the poverty, desperation, cyclic violence model of crime just cuz he or she got beat up. You're silly. XD |
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Recursive Paradox Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. Then you are acutely aware of my issue with describing the situation to you, no? Gender is very much a postmodernist's dream and a modernist's nightmare. It follows arbitrary and confusing rules, is difficult to pinpoint and track (is it social, biological, psychological, combination?) and is even more difficult to deal with because almost the entire human race is within the system of gender (which poisons all of our observations regarding it) It's a giant ********, so I try to leave the theories on the side when it comes to people surviving and achieving well being. It isn't like hassling anyone is gonna get either of us the answers, right? The questions are insurmountable right now. Captcha was Profound Day. Oh the win. |
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Syndactyly Okay. 8:00 sound good? Syndactyly I don't think words are enough, and especially not emoticons, to determine a person's personality type. Vocabulary can largely be based on diction, education, environment, etc. If I was from Chicago I'd probably use different words than if I was from Toronto. jung's functions don't encompass all aspects of personality, I hope you know. Yes, some aspects depend on your upbringing, but some depend on how you like to use your amazing brain. A grizzly and a polar bear are both still bears. Syndactyly Vacillate, yes. The other two? Rarely. I generally avoid showing off my fancy vocabulary because people go, "WUT DID U JUS MAEK DAT WROD UP." Syndactyly Blairnensha I know! That's why I used words like 'doubt' and 'evidence' instead of 'proof' :p It's not a kirk or a spock. That's F and T, basically. It's more of an uhura (did I spell that right?) You imagine intuitive reasoning with an emphasis on the judgement portion, because that's how it works for you. But intuition isn't dependent on judgement. It's possible - necessary, for me - to generate more information than one can adequately explain with logic and reason. Syndactyly I'm pretty sure evidence = proof. Evidence is additive. Proof is absolute. Is this sufficient? Syndactyly I hate that. I know exactly what your friend is talking about. Syndactyly I was talking about trans people associating themselves with the "right" gender role, meaning the role that they WANT to be, not the role that is expected of them. You said that gender roles are social/learned. If that is true, then no transperson would make the "choice" to follow the roles they want to because they've been TAUGHT and ENCOURAGED to do the opposite. Syndactyly Your idea is extremely controversial, and most trans peopel would bite your head off for even suggesting it. But I cannot tell you what I think the cause of gender dysphoria is, mine started happening upexpectedly and didn't seem to have any "triggers" other than a realization, that compounded my anxiety and made me much more aware of a feeling I had been suppressing for at least 4 or 5 years. All of those roles you came up with are roles that young children can select before they have been "taught" them. I loved cars since I was a little kid. They had wheels. They go vroom. They go boom when you crash. That was fun. |
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Recursive Paradox Syndactyly Recursive Paradox Syndactyly Recursive Paradox Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O How? Women's bodies are construed as owned, we're raped far, far more often than men are, we make less money, are harassed more, our views are construed as less valid, etc etc etc. Men do in fact have privilege over women cuz masculinity is treated as higher than femininity. It's why people beat the s**t out of trans women and mostly just ignore trans guys. It is expected for femininity to be shed. Attempting to gain it goes against the ideology of our culture. But women do not have the social power to enforce these stereotypes. Only men do. I do have a source, but it is dated and does not have statistics on this basic issue. But it does explain in a nutshell why/how men are oppressed mostly by other men, and also how women add fuel to the fire as well. Recursive Paradox Quote: When a man doesn't meet these stereotypes, he is beat down, neglected, and his masculinity is questioned. At worst, he is questioned or treated somewhat badly by some. Women in violation of gender roles are raped, harassed and beaten for it. But in terms of beatings, men are much more beaten by other men than women are beaten by men. Men are the victims of the most beatings and murders at least in the United States. Recursive Paradox Quote: If he doesn't meet these expectations he is oppressed in a way very much how women are. And not because "he's like a woman" but because he don't meet the ridiculous standards of manhood. The degree of effects of his actions don't even come close. You gotta keep in mind, if you're basing this on your own experiences, you're a trans guy. That's a huge confounding variable. Your gender is considered infinitely more in question than any cis person's, so you will face things no cis man even has to consider. I am basing this on what I know not only about my own experiences but of the experiences of other men (cis and trans). My own experiences are a VERY small piece of the puzzle here, I am mostly talking about males as a gender, perceived completely as male. I am not talking about the whole transgender piece of the puzzle in this instance, but it does apply to us as trangender individuals once our medical history is no longer "public record" (once not everyone knows about it and we blend into our respective roles). Recursive Paradox Quote: No, you don't have to be "separate" from a class to oppress it. Yes you do. By definition. Quote: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppress Main Entry: op·press 1 a archaic : suppress b : to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority 2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon Wikipedia explains internalized oppression, which obviously is a form of oppression: Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression#Internalized_oppression In sociology and psychology, internalized oppression is the manner in which an oppressed group comes to use against itself the methods of the oppressor. [...] Any social group can internalize prejudice. Don't like the Wiki? How about a women's advocacy group? Quote: http://www.letswrap.com/nadvinfo/internal.htm Internalized oppression means the oppressor doesn't have to exert any more pressure, because we now do it to ourselves and each other. Hope this explains my idea more clearly. |
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Ythan II Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. You ask a question. Someone asks you the same question in retrospect. You say you can't answer it. So why ask a question that you don't think has ANY answer to it, based upon it's poor wording? |
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Syndactyly Captain Verd My two cents: By the time people are in college, I don't think it matters whether the school is co-ed or not. High school yes, middle school yes, but college no. Why? Most people attending college can stay out late when they want, go out to coffee shops when they want, hop in a car or a bike or subway and see people of the opposite gender. Considering most colleges require men and women to live in different dorms, I don't think there's much of a difference. At that age, unless you absolutely never leave your dorm, you're pretty much guarenteed to see and speak to members of the opposite sex. I don't think it really enforces gender roles any more than any other place, honestly. It's not like saying MEN ONLY SCHOOL BECAUSE WOMEN ARE TOO DUMB LOLOLOL People are making it sound like, "OMG IF THEY GO TO A MEN ONLY SCHOOL THEY'LL NEVER SEE WOMEN AND THEY'LL REALLY THINK THEY'RE FROM VENUS!1!" Um, people have a life outside of school. I think you're hyperbolizing our reactions. It's like there's no room in your mind between "let it slide" and "NUKE THE IDEA WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE." And I think that's been part of the problem with this whole tangent from the start. Syndactyly Wow, I haven't seen anyone bitching about separate dorms yet. I have before - though probably not in this thread. Though I suspect endorsing your use of the word "bitching" will only serve to excaberate the problem I mentioned above. It might be better to say "I've spoke in disapproval of the idea." I've also spoken in favor of unisex washrooms and unisex restrooms all around. Syndactyly I also still don't see how separation enforces gender roles. I've been to exclusive men's clubs (gay clubs) where cross dressing and gender play is encouraged in the exclusively male environment. And exceptions to the general case mean that the general case is not true? (Not that I'll actually accept your claim without evidence.) |
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Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. |
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Recursive Paradox Ythan II Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. Just cuz we deal with a bunch of ******** up s**t regarding gender doesn't mean we can describe it in objective, scientific and conceptual terms. A victim of assault is not going to understand the poverty, desperation, cyclic violence model of crime just cuz he or she got beat up. You're silly. XD |
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Syndactyly Ythan II Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. You ask a question. Someone asks you the same question in retrospect. You say you can't answer it. So why ask a question that you don't think has ANY answer to it, based upon it's poor wording? |
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Blairnensha Syndactyly I don't think words are enough, and especially not emoticons, to determine a person's personality type. Vocabulary can largely be based on diction, education, environment, etc. If I was from Chicago I'd probably use different words than if I was from Toronto. jung's functions don't encompass all aspects of personality, I hope you know. Yes, some aspects depend on your upbringing, but some depend on how you like to use your amazing brain. A grizzly and a polar bear are both still bears. Blairnensha Syndactyly Vacillate, yes. The other two? Rarely. I generally avoid showing off my fancy vocabulary because people go, "WUT DID U JUS MAEK DAT WROD UP." This is me just being ever the critic, don't mind me. Blairnensha Syndactyly Blairnensha I know! That's why I used words like 'doubt' and 'evidence' instead of 'proof' :p It's not a kirk or a spock. That's F and T, basically. It's more of an uhura (did I spell that right?) Blairnensha You imagine intuitive reasoning with an emphasis on the judgement portion, because that's how it works for you. But intuition isn't dependent on judgement. It's possible - necessary, for me - to generate more information than one can adequately explain with logic and reason. Blairnensha Syndactyly I'm pretty sure evidence = proof. Evidence is additive. Proof is absolute. Is this sufficient? Blairnensha Syndactyly I was talking about trans people associating themselves with the "right" gender role, meaning the role that they WANT to be, not the role that is expected of them. You said that gender roles are social/learned. If that is true, then no transperson would make the "choice" to follow the roles they want to because they've been TAUGHT and ENCOURAGED to do the opposite. Billy is a boy. So we think. He was born male. So far in his short life, he's been encouraged, taught, and expected to do "boy things." He stubbornly, however, chooses to do "girl things." He has no sisters. He is not old enough to have been in school yet. How is this possible if gender roles are learned/taught? Blairnensha Syndactyly Your idea is extremely controversial, and most trans peopel would bite your head off for even suggesting it. But I cannot tell you what I think the cause of gender dysphoria is, mine started happening upexpectedly and didn't seem to have any "triggers" other than a realization, that compounded my anxiety and made me much more aware of a feeling I had been suppressing for at least 4 or 5 years. All of those roles you came up with are roles that young children can select before they have been "taught" them. I loved cars since I was a little kid. They had wheels. They go vroom. They go boom when you crash. That was fun. |
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Soph: individuals can't take responsibility for a leaderless group, so blaming a group is pointless. Umm... Yeah that's all I got fa now.
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Ythan II Recursive Paradox Ythan II Syndactyly Ythan II I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer. Just cuz we deal with a bunch of ******** up s**t regarding gender doesn't mean we can describe it in objective, scientific and conceptual terms. A victim of assault is not going to understand the poverty, desperation, cyclic violence model of crime just cuz he or she got beat up. You're silly. XD I was more commenting on you asking us in the first place. |
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