[ Poll ] Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans		16.1%	[ 889 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative		12.1%	[ 670 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance		6.1%	[ 338 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone		23.7%	[ 1309 ]
Not at all		30.8%	[ 1703 ]
I don't know		11.2%	[ 619 ]

Total Votes: 5528

[Syndactyly]

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Why wait? We could have angry sex right now. surprised

I'd rather be allowed to have my mouth open for that. I'm sure you'd prefer it that way as well. wink

Okay. 8:00 sound good?

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Really? You think that only certain uses of words come from certain types of... people? Personalities? I don't get it.

cognitive functions. Familiar with Jung? Different modes of thinking process different kinds of information. And everyone has a preference. Certain words, expressions, memes, and so on will appeal to one type more than others. As a primitive but obvious example, an ENTJ will pretty much never use smileys when they are talking straight, which will be most of the time. A curious pattern noted by the person who informed me of this: only INFJs will use 'peachy' in earnest.

I don't think words are enough, and especially not emoticons, to determine a person's personality type. Vocabulary can largely be based on diction, education, environment, etc. If I was from Chicago I'd probably use different words than if I was from Toronto.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

I am more linguistically complex than most people, according to the results of my IQ test. I have a much more versatile vocabulary. I would think that would make it more difficult to draw conclusions simply based on word usage and word choice. Especially if I use a word like flotsam or vacillate or egregious.

Sounding more N already smile funny what a bit of flirtation can do. Would you use words like those?

Vacillate, yes. The other two? Rarely. I generally avoid showing off my fancy vocabulary because people go, "WUT DID U JUS MAEK DAT WROD UP."

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Oh, and if you don't really know the specifics and don't have a firm grasp, your "intuition" is nothing more than speculation and assumptions. Intuition-based thinking usually tends to rely on educated guesses, not just sporadic and emotional, "I have a gut feeling" sort of stuff. That's an example of a Kirk rather than a Spock.

I know! That's why I used words like 'doubt' and 'evidence' instead of 'proof' :p

It's not a kirk or a spock. That's F and T, basically. It's more of an uhura (did I spell that right?)

Kirk represents the F and Spock represents the T. I thought that much would be obvious.

I'm pretty sure evidence = proof.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

I'm on to this, you know. You're calling yourself a "P" because you think you're "mirroring" me. But are you really a "P"?

naturally, you mean? Yes. It's a source of friction between me and an RL INTJ friend. He wants things to be decided and to deal with one issue or event or idea at a time, while I flit about from one to the next without even an indication that I've abandoned the last.

I hate that. I know exactly what your friend is talking about.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Asking for a source is essentially asking for proof.

You shouldn't have to rely on MY sources to explain YOUR claims.

If you hadn't brought it up, I wouldn't have needed to explain it away x.x We're still talking about transpeople who associate themselves with the 'wrong' gender role for their birth sex, right? Okay, I'm gonna hazard a guess here to push this forward: maybe that's a cause of transgenderism? Maybe children who slip into the opposite gender role (for whatever reason) later develop dysphoria? Obviously this is not the case across all transpeople but the understanding of gender identity seems to be lacking enough that anything could be true! Anyway, the majority of gender stereotypes are definitely societal. Makeup, cars, engineering, pink, purple, cooking, cleaning, hair, oil rigs... Chivalry. What else? Roles develop from these elements, I think.

I was talking about trans people associating themselves with the "right" gender role, meaning the role that they WANT to be, not the role that is expected of them. You said that gender roles are social/learned. If that is true, then no transperson would make the "choice" to follow the roles they want to because they've been TAUGHT and ENCOURAGED to do the opposite.

Your idea is extremely controversial, and most trans peopel would bite your head off for even suggesting it. But I cannot tell you what I think the cause of gender dysphoria is, mine started happening upexpectedly and didn't seem to have any "triggers" other than a realization, that compounded my anxiety and made me much more aware of a feeling I had been suppressing for at least 4 or 5 years.

All of those roles you came up with are roles that young children can select before they have been "taught" them. I loved cars since I was a little kid. They had wheels. They go vroom. They go boom when you crash. That was fun.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

It was an example. You seem to think this entire situation is in black and white.

yes! It's not a false dichotomy. Logic precludes the alternatives.

The situation has many shades of grey yu refuse to acknowledge.

Blairnensha

At any given time, he is in an environment where he is interacting equitably with people of both genders, or at least of roughly equal probability of either gender, OR he is in an environment with a gender bias. If the former, all's well. If the latter, gender divides are being reinforced. There's no way to undo it.

I still don't think separating genders AUTOMATICALLY creates a gender bias, which is what you've implied. Still don't see how gender divides are being reinforced, unless you mean the whole "boys only thing," then YES, obviously, that's the ONLY gender divide that I see that's a given. The REST of it all depends on WHAT group of men we're talking about.

Blairnensha

Also, I prefer not to talk about my own gender in public, but I will make the clarification since it's in the spotlight: I don't know what I am. I have never said I am not trans. Kaosgirl did, and I corrected her, if you can call it a correction. If you want more detail, or better yet, think you can help, PMs are open.

Are you the same Blair that used to have a male avatar? Pretty sure the username was different too, but "Blair" was in it.

I wouldn't mind helping you explore your feelings. 3nodding

[Recursive Paradox]

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

I can say that I understand the concept of safe spaces for marginalized groups. Gender separation doesn't make sense in a college (where you go for learning, not for a safe space), but say in groups where women (it should be cis and trans, but normally we're dumped) take some time to recover from sexism and bullshit in society and discuss those issues without guys chiming in and questioning whether we're all just delusional or creating strawfeminists to attack us with (which happens often).

I don't think I said anything about safety. But it could be a preference, and why aren't people allowed to have that preference? So a guy wants to be in a strictly male environment. Does he really need a reason?

You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying that safe spaces are an exception to Blair's logic.

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

are we talking about how men expect each other to be homophobic, grog-swilling, foul-smelling pigs with trophy wives? Or something else.

I dunno, you'd have to ask Syn. I don't think the label class oppression applies to in house battles. For instance, the bitchy s**t trans women do to each other isn't oppression. It just sucks.

[Blairnensha]

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

When are you guys going to shut up? This argument is stupid.

When we kiss and make up. Now kindly ******** off.

After you're done kissing Syn, could you give me a go? I'm lonely for Blair lovins'

Especially when you talk so sassy. heart

sometimes you've got to fight a yeast infection with pointy sticks.

Aren't you poly? Why don't you just join in~

[Syndactyly]

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

Women. And believe it or not other men.

[Syndactyly]

Recursive Paradox

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

Edit: Did you see what I did there? XD

I almost said that, but I didn't want to hear him say, "Their genitals/chromosomes."

[Ythan II]

Agent Cougar Draven

Ythan II

Blairnensha

Ythan II

Syndactyly

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

This isn't a quesiton that can be answered with a simple one-liner. There is also a lot of controversy regarding this topic. In short: It depends on which doctor you ask.

That doesn't provide much support in favor.

in favour of what?

If your question was, 'prove GID exists', you could have asked straight-up instead of starting off with a red herring.

Is that your question, actually? Sorry, I assumed you had some idea what you were asking about. The most straightforward answer is probably: GID diagnosis.

You're even worse. You people are so paranoid that you fly off the handle over imagined offenses. Talk about red herring.

The ********? You assume incorrectly, and apparently cannot distinguish between abject paranoia and sarcasm.

So let's try again: What do you mean by "what makes a trans person what they say they are"?

Because as it stands, I think an answer of "they said so" should be sufficient.

Talk about defense mechanism.

[Recursive Paradox]

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

When are you guys going to shut up? This argument is stupid.

When we kiss and make up. Now kindly ******** off.

After you're done kissing Syn, could you give me a go? I'm lonely for Blair lovins'

Especially when you talk so sassy. heart

sometimes you've got to fight a yeast infection with pointy sticks.

Aren't you poly? Why don't you just join in~

Brb, getting lube.

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

Women.

How? Women's bodies are construed as owned, we're raped far, far more often than men are, we make less money, are harassed more, our views are construed as less valid, etc etc etc. Men do in fact have privilege over women cuz masculinity is treated as higher than femininity. It's why people beat the s**t out of trans women and mostly just ignore trans guys. It is expected for femininity to be shed. Attempting to gain it goes against the ideology of our culture.

Quote:

And believe it or not other men.

That's infighting. Doesn't fit oppression's definition (one class dominating another class through ideologically enforced social training on all ends and establishing their own privilege in society as an individual class), although it certainly does suck and is a problem.

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

Edit: Did you see what I did there? XD

I almost said that, but I didn't want to hear him say, "Their genitals/chromosomes."

And then you say, "why?"

And what him struggle with the concept. XD

[Ythan II]

Blairnensha

Ythan II

Blairnensha

Ythan II

Syndactyly

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

This isn't a quesiton that can be answered with a simple one-liner. There is also a lot of controversy regarding this topic. In short: It depends on which doctor you ask.

That doesn't provide much support in favor.

in favour of what?

If your question was, 'prove GID exists', you could have asked straight-up instead of starting off with a red herring.

Is that your question, actually? Sorry, I assumed you had some idea what you were asking about. The most straightforward answer is probably: GID diagnosis.

You're even worse. You people are so paranoid that you fly off the handle over imagined offenses. Talk about red herring.

I noticed you avoided my question. Apparently, I was right. That's ok. Now I know I can ignore you, call you a troll, and tell everyone else to stop bothering with you.

Make that two.

[Recursive Paradox]

@Ythan

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

[Ythan II]

I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer.

[Agent Cougar Draven]

Ythan II

Agent Cougar Draven

Ythan II

Blairnensha

Ythan II

That doesn't provide much support in favor.

in favour of what?

If your question was, 'prove GID exists', you could have asked straight-up instead of starting off with a red herring.

Is that your question, actually? Sorry, I assumed you had some idea what you were asking about. The most straightforward answer is probably: GID diagnosis.

You're even worse. You people are so paranoid that you fly off the handle over imagined offenses. Talk about red herring.

The ********? You assume incorrectly, and apparently cannot distinguish between abject paranoia and sarcasm.

So let's try again: What do you mean by "what makes a trans person what they say they are"?

Because as it stands, I think an answer of "they said so" should be sufficient.

Talk about defense mechanism.

Actually, no. I'm cis, and I think you're asking a vague question that you have refused to answer for cisgendered people, and I think that you're asking the question with the intent to ridicule the idea.

******** off. Kindly.

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

When are you guys going to shut up? This argument is stupid.

When we kiss and make up. Now kindly ******** off.

After you're done kissing Syn, could you give me a go? I'm lonely for Blair lovins'

Especially when you talk so sassy. heart

sometimes you've got to fight a yeast infection with pointy sticks.

Aren't you poly? Why don't you just join in~

Brb, getting lube.

OH MY GOD WHERE'S THE CAMERA

Recursive Paradox

@Ythan

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

...apparently, the ability to completely disregard any questions of their viewpoints combined with the inability to formulate a logical counterargument.

Oh, wait, no, that's not right. That's what makes someone a troll.

[Agent Cougar Draven]

Ythan II

I do not personally feel that the my vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer.

Fixed.

[Syndactyly]

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

Women.

How? Women's bodies are construed as owned, we're raped far, far more often than men are, we make less money, are harassed more, our views are construed as less valid, etc etc etc. Men do in fact have privilege over women cuz masculinity is treated as higher than femininity. It's why people beat the s**t out of trans women and mostly just ignore trans guys. It is expected for femininity to be shed. Attempting to gain it goes against the ideology of our culture.

Men are expected to be strong, the providers, and all the other stereotypical roles, and women condone and encourage these stereotypes. When a man doesn't meet these stereotypes, he is beat down, neglected, and his masculinity is questioned. If he doesn't meet these expectations he is oppressed in a way very much how women are. And not because "he's like a woman" but because he don't meet the ridiculous standards of manhood.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

And believe it or not other men.

That's infighting. Doesn't fit oppression's definition (one class dominating another class through ideologically enforced social training on all ends and establishing their own privilege in society as an individual class), although it certainly does suck and is a problem.

No, you don't have to be "separate" from a class to oppress it.

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

Edit: Did you see what I did there? XD

I almost said that, but I didn't want to hear him say, "Their genitals/chromosomes."

And then you say, "why?"

And what him struggle with the concept. XD

Hmmm, I suppose that's a good idea.

[Recursive Paradox]

Ythan II

I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer.

Then you are acutely aware of my issue with describing the situation to you, no?

Gender is very much a postmodernist's dream and a modernist's nightmare. It follows arbitrary and confusing rules, is difficult to pinpoint and track (is it social, biological, psychological, combination?) and is even more difficult to deal with because almost the entire human race is within the system of gender (which poisons all of our observations regarding it)

It's a giant ********, so I try to leave the theories on the side when it comes to people surviving and achieving well being. It isn't like hassling anyone is gonna get either of us the answers, right? The questions are insurmountable right now.

Captcha was Profound Day. Oh the win.

[Syndactyly]

Ythan II

I do not personally feel that the vocabulary is sufficient to give a clear answer.

Then why did you word the original question that way? :/ Why did you ask a question that you knew was flawed and couldn't really be answered? To see if we'd bite?