[ Poll ] Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans		16.1%	[ 889 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative		12.1%	[ 670 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance		6.1%	[ 338 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone		23.7%	[ 1309 ]
Not at all		30.8%	[ 1703 ]
I don't know		11.2%	[ 619 ]

Total Votes: 5528

[Corrupted Coco]

Then drop it, s**t. You guys make all these gigantic posts arguing over petty s**t for pages at a time and nobody else gets any replies to anything they post.

[Blairnensha]

Corrupted Coco

Then drop it, s**t. You guys make all these gigantic posts arguing over petty s**t for pages at a time and nobody else gets any replies to anything they post.

Imagine that: an extended discussion in the Extended Discussion forum.

*headshakesighs*

[Syndactyly]

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

When are you guys going to shut up? This argument is stupid.

When we kiss and make up. Now kindly ******** off.

Why wait? We could have angry sex right now. surprised

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Blairnensha

Basically, examine how you speak. Not what you say. You can fake cognitive processes, but not the little details that emerge as a result of preferences.

Okay, genius. What are some of these little details? Put your money where your mouth is. Explain one conclusion you drew and what "little details" made this apparent.

How I "speak" is really difficult to read through the internet. You do not know the tone in which is expressed through the words I have chosen. You can only see raw words here, and assume how they were put together. You no doubt read this with a tone of your own. I tend to read people's posts with like, Morgan Freeman's voice or something, so that they become much more neutral and I don't accidentally shove things into their posts they never really said or intended.

*shakes head* certain word patterns only emerge from certain types. I don't have a firm enough grasp to tell you exactly what's what. Only a vague, intuitive sense. I could address each individual thing all sensor-like but that would be a different exercise. I have given some specific examples already.

Honestly, I forgot that we were having an argument, which is very relevant to the outcome. I didn't make any of the mistakes of which you're accusing me, but I did make some. Ok? So, if you're any kind of J, you will have to think to understand that as a P, my thoughts are volatile and constantly considering possibilities rather than making a straight-up decision. This, at least, should be fairly evident by now. It's probably frustrating for you. So, I apologize for that.

Really? You think that only certain uses of words come from certain types of... people? Personalities? I don't get it. I am more linguistically complex than most people, according to the results of my IQ test. I have a much more versatile vocabulary. I would think that would make it more difficult to draw conclusions simply based on word usage and word choice. Especially if I use a word like flotsam or vacillate or egregious.

Oh, and if you don't really know the specifics and don't have a firm grasp, your "intuition" is nothing more than speculation and assumptions. Intuition-based thinking usually tends to rely on educated guesses, not just sporadic and emotional, "I have a gut feeling" sort of stuff. That's an example of a Kirk rather than a Spock.

No, addressing each individual point would not be "sensor-like." It would be logically supporting what you're clearly "sensing."

I'm on to this, you know. You're calling yourself a "P" because you think you're "mirroring" me. But are you really a "P"?

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Oh, I didn't say that. I said WHAT ABOUT the transgender kids who go through that, HOW is that possible with the logic you'd given? You said gender roles are social. I gave an example that seems to counter that claim. You then told me to prove it. Why not instead explain why that might be?

No, I asked for a source. So that I could know the specifics of what you were talking about. So that I could explain properly. (I have already said this, but perhaps it will be more clear without baggage.)

Asking for a source is essentially asking for proof.

You shouldn't have to rely on MY sources to explain YOUR claims.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

Right. But you're acting like this is the only school they've ever had. They were most likely exposed to co-ed environments in the public school system. You're acting like these men are very impressionable and have no stability to hold their own ground and personal beliefs. I just don't see how being in an environment like that is AUTOMATICALLY and ABSOLUTELY going to convert these men to distance themselves from women. It could ALSO have hte opposite effect. Example:

Guy who goes to this school: Damn, after going to school with men all day, I realize how shitty my peers are. GIRLS' NIGHT OUT ANYBODY?!

Then they're distancing themselves from other men..? I am pretty sure that is still reinforcing gender divides, just in the opposite way.

It was an example. You seem to think this entire situation is in black and white.

Blairnensha

Syndactyly

You're way too confident in your abilities to read the personality of a stranger over the internet.

This, at least, shows you as a J.

Did I deny that?

[Syndactyly]

Captain Verd

Syndactyly

Well, first of all, I'm not a sensor. I'm INTJ; introverted, intuitive, thinking, judging. Although I can also ben ENTJ (extroverted). I don't base what I know on percieving/feeling.

Second, the biggest concept that I feel you refused to explain is HOW separating genders INFORCES gender roles. You have not given a soild explanation (A happens, C is a result because A contributed to B which lead to C because of explanation Y, for example).

Also, I think it says a lot that you are:

1) Assuming those 3 other people have the SAME EXACT argument/view you do, when it is more likely that they are of the same position and draw the same conclusion with different logic (which may or may not be valid) and
2) That you're actually judgmental enough to "measure" the intelligence of your peers.

As for for the stupidity of the general public, no, I don't ever complain about it. To be more specific, and prevent people from digging out ancient examples: I have not in a very long time.

There are some people who can play games, and some people who can't. Blair, for example, has never been good at backing people into the answer he/she wants as far as I've seen, nor is she good at asking subtle questions to get people to slip up.

I said this before, but apparently nobody ******** listens to me: If you're trying at one of these games, and the subject stops you midway to tell you they don't know what the ******** you're talking about, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Proceeding to attack said subject because you have failed to make your little game as clever as you imagined is retarded. Just stick to the facts next time, for God's sake.

Okay, I left for a long time. Is this the same Blair who used to have a male avatar, and said he WASN'T trans?

I agree. If a person is going to try to confuse me or get me to slip up, they shouldn't try that by being extremely vague.

[Syndactyly]

Corrupted Coco

Then drop it, s**t. You guys make all these gigantic posts arguing over petty s**t for pages at a time and nobody else gets any replies to anything they post.

Like what? I haven't ignored anything someone else has posted, unless it was like, "tranniez suck and r gross" or "wow u guys r so brave 4 being urselvs."

[junglejade]

Hello hello! Sorry for interrupting but,

I'm doing a survey on whether homosexuals should legally be allowed to adopt.

This is for a school essay.

I need 200 votes, please participate.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/general-discussion/do-you-support-gays-adopting-plz-vote-on-poll/t.55881877/

All I need is your vote.

Thank you.

[Rosetta Celestine]

junglejade

Hello hello! Sorry for interrupting but,

I'm doing a survey on whether homosexuals should legally be allowed to adopt.

This is for a school essay.

I need 200 votes, please participate.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/general-discussion/do-you-support-gays-adopting-plz-vote-on-poll/t.55881877/

All I need is your vote.

Thank you.

That has nothing to do with transgender issues. GET OUT.

[Corrupted Coco]

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

Then drop it, s**t. You guys make all these gigantic posts arguing over petty s**t for pages at a time and nobody else gets any replies to anything they post.

Imagine that: an extended discussion in the Extended Discussion forum.

*headshakesighs*

Lol sure, an extended discussion on something meaningless and stupid. You aren't proving anything here.

[Blairnensha]

Syndactyly

Why wait? We could have angry sex right now. surprised

I'd rather be allowed to have my mouth open for that. I'm sure you'd prefer it that way as well. wink

Syndactyly

Really? You think that only certain uses of words come from certain types of... people? Personalities? I don't get it.

cognitive functions. Familiar with Jung? Different modes of thinking process different kinds of information. And everyone has a preference. Certain words, expressions, memes, and so on will appeal to one type more than others. As a primitive but obvious example, an ENTJ will pretty much never use smileys when they are talking straight, which will be most of the time. A curious pattern noted by the person who informed me of this: only INFJs will use 'peachy' in earnest.

Syndactyly

I am more linguistically complex than most people, according to the results of my IQ test. I have a much more versatile vocabulary. I would think that would make it more difficult to draw conclusions simply based on word usage and word choice. Especially if I use a word like flotsam or vacillate or egregious.

Sounding more N already smile funny what a bit of flirtation can do. Would you use words like those?

Syndactyly

Oh, and if you don't really know the specifics and don't have a firm grasp, your "intuition" is nothing more than speculation and assumptions. Intuition-based thinking usually tends to rely on educated guesses, not just sporadic and emotional, "I have a gut feeling" sort of stuff. That's an example of a Kirk rather than a Spock.

I know! That's why I used words like 'doubt' and 'evidence' instead of 'proof' :p

It's not a kirk or a spock. That's F and T, basically. It's more of an uhura (did I spell that right?)

Syndactyly

No, addressing each individual point would not be "sensor-like." It would be logically supporting what you're clearly "sensing."

ugh. It was an expression. Sorry. But it wouldn't be logical either. That's something we're going to have to discuss at some point, too.

Syndactyly

I'm on to this, you know. You're calling yourself a "P" because you think you're "mirroring" me. But are you really a "P"?

naturally, you mean? Yes. It's a source of friction between me and an RL INTJ friend. He wants things to be decided and to deal with one issue or event or idea at a time, while I flit about from one to the next without even an indication that I've abandoned the last.

It's the S and F elements which would be out of character for me. Things like clumsy emotional manipulation(F), as Verd pointed out, and appeals to quantifiable superiority vectors like intelligence(S).

Syndactyly

Asking for a source is essentially asking for proof.

You shouldn't have to rely on MY sources to explain YOUR claims.

If you hadn't brought it up, I wouldn't have needed to explain it away x.x We're still talking about transpeople who associate themselves with the 'wrong' gender role for their birth sex, right? Okay, I'm gonna hazard a guess here to push this forward: maybe that's a cause of transgenderism? Maybe children who slip into the opposite gender role (for whatever reason) later develop dysphoria? Obviously this is not the case across all transpeople but the understanding of gender identity seems to be lacking enough that anything could be true! Anyway, the majority of gender stereotypes are definitely societal. Makeup, cars, engineering, pink, purple, cooking, cleaning, hair, oil rigs... Chivalry. What else? Roles develop from these elements, I think.

Syndactyly

It was an example. You seem to think this entire situation is in black and white.

yes! It's not a false dichotomy. Logic precludes the alternatives.

At any given time, he is in an environment where he is interacting equitably with people of both genders, or at least of roughly equal probability of either gender, OR he is in an environment with a gender bias. If the former, all's well. If the latter, gender divides are being reinforced. There's no way to undo it.

Granted, it starts much earlier. That's why I said these things are all symptoms.

Also, I prefer not to talk about my own gender in public, but I will make the clarification since it's in the spotlight: I don't know what I am. I have never said I am not trans. Kaosgirl did, and I corrected her, if you can call it a correction. If you want more detail, or better yet, think you can help, PMs are open.

[Recursive Paradox]

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

I can say that I understand the concept of safe spaces for marginalized groups. Gender separation doesn't make sense in a college (where you go for learning, not for a safe space), but say in groups where women (it should be cis and trans, but normally we're dumped) take some time to recover from sexism and bullshit in society and discuss those issues without guys chiming in and questioning whether we're all just delusional or creating strawfeminists to attack us with (which happens often).

I don't think I said anything about safety. But it could be a preference, and why aren't people allowed to have that preference? So a guy wants to be in a strictly male environment. Does he really need a reason?

You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying that safe spaces are an exception to Blair's logic.

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

[Recursive Paradox]

Ythan II

What makes a transperson what they say they are?

What makes a cis person what they say they are?

Edit: Did you see what I did there? XD

[Recursive Paradox]

Blairnensha

Corrupted Coco

When are you guys going to shut up? This argument is stupid.

When we kiss and make up. Now kindly ******** off.

After you're done kissing Syn, could you give me a go? I'm lonely for Blair lovins'

Especially when you talk so sassy. heart

[Blairnensha]

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

I can say that I understand the concept of safe spaces for marginalized groups. Gender separation doesn't make sense in a college (where you go for learning, not for a safe space), but say in groups where women (it should be cis and trans, but normally we're dumped) take some time to recover from sexism and bullshit in society and discuss those issues without guys chiming in and questioning whether we're all just delusional or creating strawfeminists to attack us with (which happens often).

I don't think I said anything about safety. But it could be a preference, and why aren't people allowed to have that preference? So a guy wants to be in a strictly male environment. Does he really need a reason?

You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying that safe spaces are an exception to Blair's logic.

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

are we talking about how men expect each other to be homophobic, grog-swilling, foul-smelling pigs with trophy wives? Or something else.