The Failure of Irreducible Complexity (Updated 6/13/08)

[Drake Sanada]

If we just popped into existence, why would we not suddenly just pop out of existence?

[Black Mr Popo]

Drake Sanada

If we just popped into existence, why would we not suddenly just pop out of existence?

A wizard did it.

[Drake Sanada]

Dib with a mission

Drake Sanada

If we just popped into existence, why would we not suddenly just pop out of existence?

A wizard did it.

I would like to meet this wizard.

[BlackShadow03]

Drake Sanada

If we just popped into existence, why would we not suddenly just pop out of existence?

You're making no sense here. Clarify?

[Drake Sanada]

BlackShadow03

Drake Sanada

If we just popped into existence, why would we not suddenly just pop out of existence?

You're making no sense here. Clarify?

Well, if Intelligent Design is true, that means some higher power just popped us into existence. Doesn't that mean that once we've had our run, we would just pop out of existence?

[Samurai7e7]

Quote:

Well, if Intelligent Design is true, that means some higher power just popped us into existence. Doesn't that mean that once we've had our run, we would just pop out of existence?

Probably, but by and large we're opperating under tha (correct) assumption that ID isn't true, so we don't need to worry about it.

[EternityDragon]

OK, 2 things:

1) Wow. Haven't seen a thread like this in a while. I think there may be some ID'ers sitting it the dark crying now after reading this (a small number though, as ID'ers and logic don't seem to mix well... xd )

2) *hugs thread* Awesome. Will be scoping out the other threads. Should be definitely worth it.

[jack0076970]

Quote:

The Mouse Trap
OK. So it's not a biological system, but given that it's the prime example Behe uses, it's fair game. However, it can be broken down and still work. If even the examples fail, how can Behe ever hope to find a non-reducible system in nature!?

The next point I wished to make was that Irreducible Complexity creates an impossible challenge by relying on a straw man version of evolution. I didn't mention it before, because it fits better in this section, but Behe has another objection to the TTSS being a reducible form of the flagellum.

His argument is that biologists have not met the challenge he presents. Namely, the reduced system that we can demonstrate must have the same function. Thus, since the TTSS does not act as a means of propulsion, it's not a reducible form of the flagellum. It's a different system all together. This was the argument he presented at a lecture in December of 2006 at the University of Kansas Video here (Real Player required).

The problem with this is that Behe is demanding that the development of such systems be explained via evolution. But evolution doesn't work on one system at a time. It borrows bits and pieces from other systems, "junk" DNA, and any source it can get its hands on. Thus, Behe presents an impossible challenge. Essentially was he says is "Show how it's possible to create system X via evolution, without using evolution."

Not being the scientist that you obviously are, could you explain in relatively simple terms how this works in practice (the bold bit) - an example of the development of anything would be great.

Quote:

But while the development of the eye has been understood for a long time now

Is there a link (web or otherwise) showing the development?

Appreciate your help.

[jack0076970]

It's Friday!

A Challenge for the weekend for those with too much time on their hands (worth >1,100 gold!)

Why 1,100 & not 11,000,000?
[1] Because I'm cheap & [2] that's pretty much all I have wink


The Evolution of the Mouse Trap

The Challenge
Build working [functioning as opposed to just staged or computer generated] models of each of the mousetrap stages & post on YouTube or somewhere equivalent.

Guides
Feel free to pull apart an actual mousetrap... or use whatever other junk you need.
If you can't get a real mouse to co-operate, you may use a rubber mouse, Barbie doll etc etc
The video should be in HD if available (otherwise best available), as close up as reasonably possible & include an audio commentary right through the process.
The video will also show you actually setting up the trap.
If using the rubber mouse/Barbie option, will at least partially show your hand guiding whatever you are holding.
Extra kudos for documenting the creation of you traps.

Disclaimer
I won't be responsible in the event that you...
[1] Get busted putting holes in the floorboards/lino
[2] Get you fingers caught while setting up or coaxing any trap with a rubber mouse
[3] Any Barbie doll damage

Post the links here & 1,100 gold & bragging rights are yours!

[jack0076970]

Sorry, please note some additional requirements in the Guide section above.

Have fun!
biggrin

Note Alteration to Guide
Thought about this afternoon & realised not fair to expect HD as not everyone will have it available - I don't even have it - just best image you have available will be fine as long as it's clear.

[jack0076970]

It's Friday again... anyone had a go at the above challenge yet?

[vipr230]

RobbieNoordzy

It's Friday again... anyone had a go at the above challenge yet?

It damn well better not be Friday, you nearly gave me a heart attack thinking I had just missed one of my finals.

[jack0076970]

Ha! Sorry... Friday in Australia.

[Auntie Proton]

I congratulate the OP on making a well informed, reasoned post. I feel that I have actually learned something.