The Failure of Irreducible Complexity (Updated 6/13/08)

[VoijaRisa]

UPDATED: Added another link demonstrating the intellectual dishonesty of ID proponents in that they cannot bring themselves to accept any level of evidence.

[Execute the Pope]

'Pa kristi flesk vi spytter!'

La det ratne!

Glorious thread. Marked and read thoroughly!

It's very good to see a thread so well explaining and debating the concept of irreducible complexity.


'Et symbol pa barmhjertighetens bortgang!'

Et skuespill der endes!

[VoijaRisa]

Execute the Pope

Glorious thread. Marked and read thoroughly!

It's very good to see a thread so well explaining and debating the concept of irreducible complexity.

If you liked this thread, make sure you check out the other threads linked in my Further Reading section. Two of them are ones I wrote and of similar depth. The later two are done by Poindextra who is also quite good at covering these topics with some depth.

Here's the links again incase you don't feel like tracking them down:
Evidence and Testing in the Scientific Field
Is Intelligent Design Different that Creationism?
Evolution - What it is and isn’t
Evolution and its Compatibility with Creationism

[VoijaRisa]

Updated: Replaced a link in the OP to one involving transcript and added another re: Dembski admitting that IC is not a positive argument, but rather an argument from ignorance.

[VoijaRisa]

Updated with another quote.

[VoijaRisa]

Updated Further Reading section with new link: Why are ID Proponents/Creationists intellectually dishonest?

[Dr Raymond Stantz]

Well, I do think that people are stuck because they feel the universe must have been created. I don't understand where this idea comes from, because energy cannot be created or destoyed, simply rearranged. Matter cannot be truly obliterated, but changed. Knowing this, I don't know why people think it all had to come from somewhere. People had a hard time excepting that the universe, possibly, simply is and always has been, but continues to change in shape and distribution. It's actually physically proven that the universe is expanding, not getting "bigger" (it isn't gaining mass). That is why it is only getting colder, not hotter.

The fact that people assume the universe "had to come from somewhere" is where the ignorance starts. We try to create a design or model for something we don't understand. What people simply don't get is that something that is the essence of everything essentially cannot be simplified into a model.

[Captain Verd]

I can very easily see how someone could think we were created; that organ systems didn't come together on their own, etc. But when you really start to look at it as a scientist, I'm surprised anyone could honestly believe that. To me, it seems like the guys who can't find the answers just got a little pissy and stuck their fingers in their ears when they couldn't figure it out.

[Dr Raymond Stantz]

Captain Verd

I can very easily see how someone could think we were created; that organ systems didn't come together on their own, etc. But when you really start to look at it as a scientist, I'm surprised anyone could honestly believe that. To me, it seems like the guys who can't find the answers just got a little pissy and stuck their fingers in their ears when they couldn't figure it out.

What suggests that they didn't? That things the way the are didn't just come together?

Evolution is the result after a bunch of matter clumping up together. Simply being a body and being alive is being a manifestation of reorganized particles that serve a function-- but not necessarily a purpose. For things to have reason is simply human's desire to have meaning in the universe. But we don't have to.

[Captain Verd]

Dr Raymond Stantz

Captain Verd

I can very easily see how someone could think we were created; that organ systems didn't come together on their own, etc. But when you really start to look at it as a scientist, I'm surprised anyone could honestly believe that. To me, it seems like the guys who can't find the answers just got a little pissy and stuck their fingers in their ears when they couldn't figure it out.

What suggests that they didn't? That things the way the are didn't just come together?

Evolution is the result after a bunch of matter clumping up together. Simply being a body and being alive is being a manifestation of reorganized particles that serve a function-- but not necessarily a purpose. For things to have reason is simply human's desire to have meaning in the universe. But we don't have to.

I believe in Snotites.

I don't think humanity has an inherent purpose, other than survival.

[Reniefuwa]

Excellent link thread, dude. Thanks for the run-down. Now Gaia has its very own resource for this kind of topic! This thread will be linked again and again, I'm absolutely positive.

[VoijaRisa]

Reniefuwa

Excellent link thread, dude. Thanks for the run-down. Now Gaia has its very own resource for this kind of topic! This thread will be linked again and again, I'm absolutely positive.

It's been around for several months, yet this is the least successful of my epic threads thus far. Only 2 pages? Sadness.

But I do keep linking it any time someone brings up ID/IC in this forum. And I'll keep updating it any time Behe lets something new and stupid slip.

[vipr230]

Voija... have I ever declared my total complete undying love for you? So much wonderful logic and refuting of such horrible horrible arguments. *hugs*

[VoijaRisa]

vipr230

Voija... have I ever declared my total complete undying love for you? So much wonderful logic and refuting of such horrible horrible arguments. *hugs*

I should really start a counter for how many people have professed their love for me for these threads. It's starting to get up there.

But I'm afraid you'll all have to get in line behind my girlfriend.

[VoijaRisa]

Updated with new link to Evolution, Entropy, the Big Bang, and the Second Law.