The Death Penalty

[balgeron]

More than anything I am pretty sure that the death penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent in heinous crimes. Essentially as a way to deter people from wanting to commit those crimes because they would know that death is waiting for them. Unfortunately, the way they do it in our society defeats the purpose of the death penalty. A lot of the time people don't find out about them unless they go out of their way to learn that people are getting it...unless it is some sort of high profile case that the media is jumping all over. And, whith that in mind I feel that the idea of the death penalty in the states (we don't have it up here in Canada) is fairly pointless. Now, if they did it in a much better way...like public hangings, beheading, catapulting someone right into a brick wall; things like that would show people that hey, you shoot some person, you are getting made into wall paste. Then it would probably work, at least a bit better, as a deterrent and would actually have some merit.

[Amelia Hood]

balgeron

More than anything I am pretty sure that the death penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent in heinous crimes. Essentially as a way to deter people from wanting to commit those crimes because they would know that death is waiting for them. Unfortunately, the way they do it in our society defeats the purpose of the death penalty. A lot of the time people don't find out about them unless they go out of their way to learn that people are getting it...unless it is some sort of high profile case that the media is jumping all over. And, whith that in mind I feel that the idea of the death penalty in the states (we don't have it up here in Canada) is fairly pointless. Now, if they did it in a much better way...like public hangings, beheading, catapulting someone right into a brick wall; things like that would show people that hey, you shoot some person, you are getting made into wall paste. Then it would probably work, at least a bit better, as a deterrent and would actually have some merit.

Life imprisonment is customarily the sentence used in absence of the death penalty wherever it's not practiced. You don't think that's a sufficient deterrent?

[Mauled by angry kittens]

Warning: Wall of Text (I'm really passionate about this subject so bear with me)

The death penalty is barbaric and puts our people down at the level of the killer by killing for our own reasons. Taking a life is wrong no matter what context you put it in. I must also point out the cold hearted nature of our arguments thus-far. We talk about the costs to our taxpayers to keep a criminal in prison for life (which actually isn't that much more and in some cases, is even more costly) and don't consider the incredible cost financially and emotionally for the people close to the criminal in question. It victimizes the innocent family of the criminal. For those of us who don't sympathize with the criminals themselves, think about this: prison is a place of constant violence, filthy living, rape and all of those wonderful things. Would you rather spend the rest of your life in humiliation in a place like that or have it ended then and there?
Diplomatically, it makes the U.S. look bad. We are one of the last countries represented in the United Nations to abolish the death penalty and when our allies/trading partners see that, it makes us all look bad which in turn will cause problems for us outside of the UN.
I find it funny that many of the people who are pro-death penalty are also in favor of the commonly used middle school "sex ed" program slogan, "It doesn't matter how small the chance is. If there's a chance, there's a chance." The reason I find that interesting is because they also argue that the chance of an innocent person getting put to death is very low. We can't be absolutely sure that our investigations are thorough enough to convict a person. The death penalty has no room for error and cannot be reversed.
As an added bonus, many judges and juries in the past and present have been hesitant to convict the person for their own personal worries that it will result in the convicted being put to death. Not only that but the endless appeals that are almost always run clog up our court system.
In the eyes of the public it can even give sympathy to the perpetrators of terrible crimes.
For those of you who want numbers on these things, the Balanced Politics website has a few things to say:
Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. Most people don't realize that carrying out one death sentence costs 2-5 times more than keeping that same criminal in prison for the rest of his life. How can this be? It has to do with the endless appeals, additional required procedures, and legal wrangling that drag the process out. It's not unusual for a prisoner to be on death row for 15-20 years. Judges, attorneys, court reporters, clerks, and court facilities all require a substantial investment by the taxpayers. Do we really have the resources to waste?

It creates sympathy for the monstrous perpetrators of the crimes. Criminals usually are looked down upon by society. People are disgusted by the vile, unconscionable acts they commit and feel tremendous sympathy for the victims of murder, rape, etc. However, the death penalty has a way of shifting sympathy away from the victims and to the criminals themselves. An excellent example is the 2005 execution of former gang leader "Tookie" Williams. This is one of the original members of the notorious Crips gang, which has a long legacy of robbery, assault, and murder. This is a man who was convicted with overwhelming evidence of the murder of 4 people, some of whom he shot in the back and then laughed at the sounds they made as they died. This is a man who never even took responsibility for the crimes or apologized to the victims -- NOT ONCE! These victims had kids and spouses, but instead of sympathy for them, sympathy shifted to Tookie. Candlelight vigils were held for him. Websites like savetookie.org sprung up. Protests and a media circus ensued trying to prevent the execution, which eventually did take place -- 26 years after the crime itself! There are many cases like this, which makes a mockery of the evil crimes these degenerates commit.

There you go. Every reason I have to get rid of the Death Penalty.

[M. Angel]

Mauled by angry kittens

Warning: Wall of Text (I'm really passionate about this subject so bear with me)

The death penalty is barbaric and puts our people down at the level of the killer by killing for our own reasons. Taking a life is wrong no matter what context you put it in. I must also point out the cold hearted nature of our arguments thus-far. We talk about the costs to our taxpayers to keep a criminal in prison for life (which actually isn't that much more and in some cases, is even more costly) and don't consider the incredible cost financially and emotionally for the people close to the criminal in question. It victimizes the innocent family of the criminal. For those of us who don't sympathize with the criminals themselves, think about this: prison is a place of constant violence, filthy living, rape and all of those wonderful things. Would you rather spend the rest of your life in humiliation in a place like that or have it ended then and there?
Diplomatically, it makes the U.S. look bad. We are one of the last countries represented in the United Nations to abolish the death penalty and when our allies/trading partners see that, it makes us all look bad which in turn will cause problems for us outside of the UN.
I find it funny that many of the people who are pro-death penalty are also in favor of the commonly used middle school "sex ed" program slogan, "It doesn't matter how small the chance is. If there's a chance, there's a chance." The reason I find that interesting is because they also argue that the chance of an innocent person getting put to death is very low. We can't be absolutely sure that our investigations are thorough enough to convict a person. The death penalty has no room for error and cannot be reversed.
As an added bonus, many judges and juries in the past and present have been hesitant to convict the person for their own personal worries that it will result in the convicted being put to death. Not only that but the endless appeals that are almost always run clog up our court system.
In the eyes of the public it can even give sympathy to the perpetrators of terrible crimes.
For those of you who want numbers on these things, the Balanced Politics website has a few things to say:
Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. Most people don't realize that carrying out one death sentence costs 2-5 times more than keeping that same criminal in prison for the rest of his life. How can this be? It has to do with the endless appeals, additional required procedures, and legal wrangling that drag the process out. It's not unusual for a prisoner to be on death row for 15-20 years. Judges, attorneys, court reporters, clerks, and court facilities all require a substantial investment by the taxpayers. Do we really have the resources to waste?

It creates sympathy for the monstrous perpetrators of the crimes. Criminals usually are looked down upon by society. People are disgusted by the vile, unconscionable acts they commit and feel tremendous sympathy for the victims of murder, rape, etc. However, the death penalty has a way of shifting sympathy away from the victims and to the criminals themselves. An excellent example is the 2005 execution of former gang leader "Tookie" Williams. This is one of the original members of the notorious Crips gang, which has a long legacy of robbery, assault, and murder. This is a man who was convicted with overwhelming evidence of the murder of 4 people, some of whom he shot in the back and then laughed at the sounds they made as they died. This is a man who never even took responsibility for the crimes or apologized to the victims -- NOT ONCE! These victims had kids and spouses, but instead of sympathy for them, sympathy shifted to Tookie. Candlelight vigils were held for him. Websites like savetookie.org sprung up. Protests and a media circus ensued trying to prevent the execution, which eventually did take place -- 26 years after the crime itself! There are many cases like this, which makes a mockery of the evil crimes these degenerates commit.

There you go. Every reason I have to get rid of the Death Penalty.

And since he's for the death penalty, say everything to counter the above and you should be fine for your debate.

Also, it removes criminals that would repeat their actions from the general society for good. Your repeat rapist can't get out after 10 years of good behavior if he's dead. :3

[BxKxRxxx]

Your argument should be that almost everyone would kill people if the death penalty would vanish (in the US that is -- we don't have an unspoken honor code like certain countries). I know I'd kill a few people I dislike strongly. We currently fear the law's consequences. You should mention that getting rehabilitation and a second chance (the typical argument against you) sounds like paradise -- a program that makes killing people acceptable -- which is too disorderly and makes the land more chaotic.

[pulchritudinous soup]

The death penalty is unreliable and it conveys the wrong message: If we use death to solve a case of murder, it's basically saying that "only certain people can kill others". Is killing good because we can justify it by judging our victim? Most serial killers believe that murder is good and productive. They believe that their victim deserved it. The death penalty is a government influence to enforce their ideology.

Apparently, it's fine if they deserve it.

[Repellant]

pulchritudinous soup

The death penalty is unreliable and it conveys the wrong message: If we use death to solve a case of murder, it's basically saying that "only certain people can kill others". Is killing good because we can justify it by judging our victim? Most serial killers believe that murder is good and productive. They believe that their victim deserved it. The death penalty is a government influence to enforce their ideology.

Apparently, it's fine if they deserve it.

So by this we can derive that the state behaves according to a sociopathic pattern and rationalizes everything they do.

[pulchritudinous soup]

Repellant

pulchritudinous soup

The death penalty is unreliable and it conveys the wrong message: If we use death to solve a case of murder, it's basically saying that "only certain people can kill others". Is killing good because we can justify it by judging our victim? Most serial killers believe that murder is good and productive. They believe that their victim deserved it. The death penalty is a government influence to enforce their ideology.

Apparently, it's fine if they deserve it.

So by this we can derive that the state behaves according to a sociopathic pattern and rationalizes everything they do.

No. So, by this, we can derive that the state advocates a sociopathic pattern and rationalizes a sociopathic ideology.

[Repellant]

pulchritudinous soup

Repellant

pulchritudinous soup

The death penalty is unreliable and it conveys the wrong message: If we use death to solve a case of murder, it's basically saying that "only certain people can kill others". Is killing good because we can justify it by judging our victim? Most serial killers believe that murder is good and productive. They believe that their victim deserved it. The death penalty is a government influence to enforce their ideology.

Apparently, it's fine if they deserve it.

So by this we can derive that the state behaves according to a sociopathic pattern and rationalizes everything they do.

No. So, by this, we can derive that the state advocates a sociopathic pattern and rationalizes a sociopathic ideology.

That makes sense. We should bring up the big picture and see if this philosophy seeps into other aspects of the state as well.

Other aspects of law enforcement, more precisely.

[Comrade Tool]

balgeron

More than anything I am pretty sure that the death penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent in heinous crimes. Essentially as a way to deter people from wanting to commit those crimes because they would know that death is waiting for them. Unfortunately, the way they do it in our society defeats the purpose of the death penalty. A lot of the time people don't find out about them unless they go out of their way to learn that people are getting it...unless it is some sort of high profile case that the media is jumping all over. And, whith that in mind I feel that the idea of the death penalty in the states (we don't have it up here in Canada) is fairly pointless. Now, if they did it in a much better way...like public hangings, beheading, catapulting someone right into a brick wall; things like that would show people that hey, you shoot some person, you are getting made into wall paste. Then it would probably work, at least a bit better, as a deterrent and would actually have some merit.

There was a article I read from a long time ago (1853 when we had public hangings) where Marx proved with data that murders actually didn't go down with public executions, but actually ended up brutalizing people.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/02/18.htm

[logan the god of candy]

Stygian Soleil

Amelia Hood

If you're talking about the US legal system then don't go for the cost angle. I watched a debate recently about this topic and (apparently) the cost of appeals and the legal proceedings that go on with a death penalty put its overall cost above life imprisonment.

Of course, I could be wrong. Could somebody clarify if this is really the case?

That's correct.

that's why you don't have appeals and legal proceedings. break the law, take a step into court, walk out into the yard and take a bullet in the head. the end.

everyone else is just too stupid to know how to do this s**t.


it's as simple as changing how it is done. how is that for a cost angle?

[Ninth Pariah]

There are certain terrible, heinous crimes a man can commit, that, in the willful commission of such a deed, is a forfeiture of one's humanity. At that point, it is more fitting to put them down as you would a dangerous animal.

[Comrade Tool]

Ninth Pariah

There are certain terrible, heinous crimes a man can commit, that, in the willful commission of such a deed, is a forfeiture of one's humanity. At that point, it is more fitting to put them down as you would a dangerous animal.

And these crimes would be?

[Ninth Pariah]

Comrade Tool

Ninth Pariah

There are certain terrible, heinous crimes a man can commit, that, in the willful commission of such a deed, is a forfeiture of one's humanity. At that point, it is more fitting to put them down as you would a dangerous animal.

And these crimes would be?

Rape. Serial murder. Torture.

There are some things all people can agree on the terrible nature of. Well, except maybe those who commit such crimes.

Also, on the cost thing: Rope is cheap. A short drop with a sudden stop is neither cruel nor unusual.

[September the Eleventh]

I'm against it. Some people deserve a fate worse than death.