The Abortion Debate

[GoatShow]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

7. abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. you lose again.

Really? You sure there's nothing else destroyed in an abortion? Nothing else at all?

that would depend on the woman. the abortion itself TECHNICALLY and PHYSICALLY destroys the pregnancy within. mentally? i can't say, because not all women respond to their abortions the same way.

The fetus, you ********.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

7. abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. you lose again.

Really? You sure there's nothing else destroyed in an abortion? Nothing else at all?

that would depend on the woman. the abortion itself TECHNICALLY and PHYSICALLY destroys the pregnancy within. mentally? i can't say, because not all women respond to their abortions the same way.

The fetus, you ********]

like i said to kata, SOMETIMES the fetus is destroyed. sometimes it is not. it depends on how far along the pregnancy is. if it's an early pregnancy, the embryo is the size of a grain of rice or a sunflower seed. when the fetus is slightly larger, there is a chance of it being destroyed. why does it matter?

[GoatShow]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

7. abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. you lose again.

Really? You sure there's nothing else destroyed in an abortion? Nothing else at all?

that would depend on the woman. the abortion itself TECHNICALLY and PHYSICALLY destroys the pregnancy within. mentally? i can't say, because not all women respond to their abortions the same way.

The fetus, you ********]

like i said to kata, SOMETIMES the fetus is destroyed. sometimes it is not. it depends on how far along the pregnancy is. if it's an early pregnancy, the embryo is the size of a grain of rice or a sunflower seed. when the fetus is slightly larger, there is a chance of it being destroyed.

So you're telling me there are fetuses that survive abortions?
Am I going to have to get out the 'throwing someone off a cliff' story?

Quote:

why does it matter?

"Abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. You lose again."

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

Really? You sure there's nothing else destroyed in an abortion? Nothing else at all?

that would depend on the woman. the abortion itself TECHNICALLY and PHYSICALLY destroys the pregnancy within. mentally? i can't say, because not all women respond to their abortions the same way.

The fetus, you ********]

like i said to kata, SOMETIMES the fetus is destroyed. sometimes it is not. it depends on how far along the pregnancy is. if it's an early pregnancy, the embryo is the size of a grain of rice or a sunflower seed. when the fetus is slightly larger, there is a chance of it being destroyed.

So you're telling me there are fetuses that survive abortions?
Am I going to have to get out the 'throwing someone off a cliff' story?

Quote:

why does it matter?

"Abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. You lose again."

first off, i did not say that the fetus survives. a first trimester abortion gives the fetus a 0 chance of surviving. second, the fetus is included in the pregnancy. no fetus or embryo, no pregnancy. i would hope you would know that.

[Mundus Transit]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

no. because this is a free nation.

Obviously not, if I'm not free to push my morals on others.

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no one's morals dictate the life of another. at least they shouldn't.

So murder is illegal...why? I would like to just kill some people.

Quote:

if i find the color pink to be evil, would it be okay for me to condemn you for wearing the color?

Yes, actually.

[GoatShow]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

that would depend on the woman. the abortion itself TECHNICALLY and PHYSICALLY destroys the pregnancy within. mentally? i can't say, because not all women respond to their abortions the same way.

The fetus, you ********]

like i said to kata, SOMETIMES the fetus is destroyed. sometimes it is not. it depends on how far along the pregnancy is. if it's an early pregnancy, the embryo is the size of a grain of rice or a sunflower seed. when the fetus is slightly larger, there is a chance of it being destroyed.

So you're telling me there are fetuses that survive abortions?
Am I going to have to get out the 'throwing someone off a cliff' story?

Quote:

why does it matter?

"Abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. You lose again."

first off, i did not say that the fetus survives. a first trimester abortion gives the fetus a 0 chance of surviving.

you don't say.

Quote:

second, the fetus is included in the pregnancy. no fetus or embryo, no pregnancy. i would hope you would know that.

Cut the crap. You're attempting to dehumanize the fetus right out of existence.

[Master Secret Asian Man]

GoatShow

Master Secret Asian Man

Macai

Master Secret Asian Man

Macai

Everyone =/= everything.

And where's the cut-off line? Sperm and eggs are just as human as a fetus when it comes to both DNA and cognition.

Actually, the DNA in a sperm or egg cell isn't complete, hence why they have to meet in order for the cells to begin self replication.

23 chromosomes is still an exact genetic replica of the parent's DNA. confused

I'll admit that my knowledge of genetics is lousy, but wouldn't you need all 46 to be an exact replica?
Isn't that why babies aren't clones?

You need 23 pairs to make a complete human, but you only need 23 to have a complete set of DNA.

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

WitheringRoseOfDecay

GoatShow

The fetus, you ********]

like i said to kata, SOMETIMES the fetus is destroyed. sometimes it is not. it depends on how far along the pregnancy is. if it's an early pregnancy, the embryo is the size of a grain of rice or a sunflower seed. when the fetus is slightly larger, there is a chance of it being destroyed.

So you're telling me there are fetuses that survive abortions?
Am I going to have to get out the 'throwing someone off a cliff' story?

Quote:

why does it matter?

"Abortion destroys nothing but the pregnancy. You lose again."

first off, i did not say that the fetus survives. a first trimester abortion gives the fetus a 0 chance of surviving.

you don't say.

Quote:

second, the fetus is included in the pregnancy. no fetus or embryo, no pregnancy. i would hope you would know that.

Cut the crap. You're attempting to dehumanize the fetus right out of existence.

i'm dehumanizing nothing. if you THINK i am, then that's your problem. i KNOW the fetus is human because if it's in the uterus of human female, it can't be anything else.

[Moonlight Silver]

GoatShow

Quote:

second, the fetus is included in the pregnancy. no fetus or embryo, no pregnancy. i would hope you would know that.

Cut the crap. You're attempting to dehumanize the fetus right out of existence.

Wouldn't that be a lot more humane than abortions?! Why complain!?

[braidedsilver]

Lithia Ariadne

braidedsilver

Joshp1990

braidedsilver

Alright peoples, I have a scenario for you, doesn't matter if you're pro-life or pro-choice, lets see who decides what.

So let's say you're a woman and you're pregnant. This is wonderful, you love your husband you've been trying hard for this baby and you couldn't be happier. However, the pregnancy seems to be taking and extra toll on you so you go see a doctor. Some time later you find out you have cancer. Lymphoma- which is virtually untreatable. You're given a choice. Abort and undergo treatment with a very small success rate, or have the baby and resign yourself to death. Which do you choose?

Please note this is a scenario based on my grandmother in 1951, from what I understand the treatments haven't gotten much better but at the time it wasn't very good. TL;DR she died, my dad lived.

This is a great example. Abortion shouldnt be based on a solid standard of right and wrong but on a circumstantial basis. But since it is unreal to investigate every pregnant womans lifestyle to determine if she is psychologically and financially ready to bear a child then it only makes since to leave it to each persons judgement. If a womans pregnant and doesnt want the child then how well do you think it will be treated. I know several people who were accidents and whose parents still act like children while beating and psychologically abusing their kids. Its parents like this that lead to more unwanted pregnancies since those kids never learned more than their parents let them. If you really believe in Pro-life then go look up worst cases of child abuse to see what these "parents" did to their kids. Alot of parents that do have an accidental birth are either too selfish or embarrassed to give it up for adoption.

Thanks.

But you didn't answer my question. What would YOU do?

Considering the fact I'm childfree; abort.

And yes I'm aware you weren't talking to me, but I answered anyway.

No, by all means I'm incredibly interested in anyone who has an answer. Can explain your reasoning in more detail?

[Mistress Lithia]

braidedsilver

Lithia Ariadne

braidedsilver

Joshp1990

braidedsilver

Alright peoples, I have a scenario for you, doesn't matter if you're pro-life or pro-choice, lets see who decides what.

So let's say you're a woman and you're pregnant. This is wonderful, you love your husband you've been trying hard for this baby and you couldn't be happier. However, the pregnancy seems to be taking and extra toll on you so you go see a doctor. Some time later you find out you have cancer. Lymphoma- which is virtually untreatable. You're given a choice. Abort and undergo treatment with a very small success rate, or have the baby and resign yourself to death. Which do you choose?

Please note this is a scenario based on my grandmother in 1951, from what I understand the treatments haven't gotten much better but at the time it wasn't very good. TL;DR she died, my dad lived.

This is a great example. Abortion shouldnt be based on a solid standard of right and wrong but on a circumstantial basis. But since it is unreal to investigate every pregnant womans lifestyle to determine if she is psychologically and financially ready to bear a child then it only makes since to leave it to each persons judgement. If a womans pregnant and doesnt want the child then how well do you think it will be treated. I know several people who were accidents and whose parents still act like children while beating and psychologically abusing their kids. Its parents like this that lead to more unwanted pregnancies since those kids never learned more than their parents let them. If you really believe in Pro-life then go look up worst cases of child abuse to see what these "parents" did to their kids. Alot of parents that do have an accidental birth are either too selfish or embarrassed to give it up for adoption.

Thanks.

But you didn't answer my question. What would YOU do?

Considering the fact I'm childfree; abort.

And yes I'm aware you weren't talking to me, but I answered anyway.

No, by all means I'm incredibly interested in anyone who has an answer. Can explain your reasoning in more detail?

I've just always been childfree. When I was fourteen I shocked my pediatrician by asking if I could have everything removed because I never wanted children. It's not that I hate children. I adore my nieces and nephews. I just have no mothering instincts whatsoever. I do not ever want children. I'm thirty six and I still feel that way.

I can see where you're going with that, I can see what the logical train of thought would be. If she hadn't sacrificed herself, your father wouldn't have been born and neither would you. Of course neither of you would have known the difference because a fetus isn't sentient. It's a personal choice. Some women would abort, others would carry to term.

[Master Secret Asian Man]

Lithia Ariadne

I can see where you're going with that, I can see what the logical train of thought would be. If she hadn't sacrificed herself, your father wouldn't have been born and neither would you. Of course neither of you would have known the difference because a fetus isn't sentient. It's a personal choice. Some women would abort, others would carry to term.

But couldn't the point also be that, as sentient humans, life is important to us, and that we should learn to value our own, if not that of the fetus? (Seriously, I'm not even trying to pick a fight or anything xd )

[Mistress Lithia]

Master Secret Asian Man

Lithia Ariadne

I can see where you're going with that, I can see what the logical train of thought would be. If she hadn't sacrificed herself, your father wouldn't have been born and neither would you. Of course neither of you would have known the difference because a fetus isn't sentient. It's a personal choice. Some women would abort, others would carry to term.

But couldn't the point also be that, as sentient humans, life is important to us, and that we should learn to value our own, if not that of the fetus? (Seriously, I'm not even trying to pick a fight or anything xd )

That point could easily be made and many people do value their own life over that of a fetus. Like I said, it's a personal choice.

[Who is Morgan]

Lithia Ariadne

Master Secret Asian Man

Moonlight Silver

Master Secret Asian Man

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And you still haven't answered the question. What do you propose happens to the 5 million children who would need state care (aka Foster Care)?

Raise them. mrgreen

Who will raise them?

The mothers and fathers! mrgreen

What mothers and fathers? You didn't pay much attention to the scenario did you? Those 5 million children are UNWANTED children placed into an already overcrowded and flawed adoption system. now, where is the government going to get the money to support them, along with the hundreds of thousands thrown into it in each ensuing year?

I redid the math on that, btw, with actual figures rather than estimates.

The actual number of unwanted children, assuming the current miscarriage rate and the expected rate of "back alley" abortions being at 100 000 (as many estimates say it would be) each year was closer to 10 and a quarter million, though I'm currently looking for things I might have missed to get that number back down. I damned near cried when I got that total. I'm willing to show the math to anyone who wants it. I'm currently looking for more statistics to make it more accurate.

[Who is Morgan]

Master Secret Asian Man

GoatShow

Master Secret Asian Man

Moonlight Silver

Master Secret Asian Man

Well, normally I would concede, but since this whole conversation I've been carrying is based on an appeal to consequence, logic has been thrown out the window. I can say what I please. biggrin

It's not an appeal to consequence if we're not using it to support abortion. At most it can be considered slightly off-topic. It's an off-topic on topic side question!

Right. It's just a list of side-affects of banning abortion that's being used to persuade the Pro-Life movement to concede. Nothing to do with appealing to consequence. Seriously, did you believe you were gonna get away with that horseshit? biggrin

Kinda fail to see how this is different from them wheeling out the big "If you get pregnant YOU'LL GET CHOLERA AND DIE" lists and using them as a reason for abortion.
If I'd have known I could just say 'appeal to consequences' to all that, I'd have done it years ago.

We did. They pressed the question. I was just trying to make them regret it. xd

It's a valid question. It's slightly off-topic, but now I'm honestly just terrifiedly curious. Who's going to look after those kids? When I re-ran the numbers with real world figures and not my estimates, it wasn't 5 million anymore. It was just shy of 10 and a quarter million.

I'm all for making abortion not be needed anymore, as much as possible, though not for illegalizing it.

I am honestly just curious as to where we're gonna find the money and the space to look after all these kids in the aftermath. I mean, pro-lifers tell us all the time "YOU'LL REGRET ABORTING." Why can I not ask the simple question of "What are you going to do with these kids?"