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A Human is a Human is a Human. Sperm cells and egg cells are incomplete humans, they are pieces of humans. However, as soon as those two meet. That is a human. That is a complete developing human. Therefor, destroying that life will be murder, non the less. It should be considered a child. It is a growing child, not yet matured. To abort it at that stage, would be like shooting a 17 year old, because its okay to, he isnt fully mature. Therefor it should not be acceptable to abort a child, in almost all circumstances. If it threatens the life of the mother, I would say yes, because that is putting her life at risk. And one shouldnt gamble with lives of others. People say some pretty dumb inhumane things when it comes to abortion, and I have to ask myself, where is your heart at?
Resident Lune
Mistress DragonFlame
Besides, if I was in that circum stance, I would wish to be aborted rather then forcing my mother to birth me, then leave me in a Racist Baby Store.


First, it's circumstance.

Second, as someone who was put in one of those "Racist Baby Stores" as you eloquently put it, I am offended by your perception that children who are not aborted would be better off dead anyway, when compared to being put up for adoption. Considering the fact that I, myself, am adopted.


Oh come of it. Oh my. She accidentally pressed the space bar button. It's not as if she posted in 1337.

Secondly I don't really unerstand why you take offense. It's not that she says that everyone who has underwent the adoption process is better off dead. Just that she'd rather have been aborted than be put in a corrupted system. Which is a personal opinion, a personal choice. You're certainly allowed to be miffed by others opinions. But I, frankly, don't see the point in it.

There is no denying that the American adoption system has flawed. Hell. I read an article in Readers' Digest about Canadian and German couples adopting black infants from America. They couldn't find them homes in the states so they starting, essentially, shipping them off to other countries where the the agencies 'tried harder' to find homes to the wee kiddies.


Resident Lune
I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults, just like many other things. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb.
No doubt babies are better off in aoption than dead. Infanticide isn't something I endorse. However ... fetuses?

...

Now. It's not that I'd rather be dead. I'm a selfish person who would have fit the 'most wanted' baby profile to a tee. Heatlhy white girl infant. However there are those who feel that they'd rather have not been born and added to the whole mess, taken the chance of being adopted away from an already existing child.


I am pro-choice. I can't imagine I'm about to impart to you anything meaningful. You want depth go to Moniquill. I believe, yes, it is the woman's choice whether or not she wishes to remain pregnant. Um. The end.
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sachiko_sohma

Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point.


That's NOT what childfree means. Having no kids makes you childless. WANTING no kids and being very convicted and adamant in that decision makes you CHILDFREE. It's an entire movement and lifestyle centered on the ideal of not having children at all, ever.


sachiko_sohma
50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.


Evidence of any kind, please?
Gris
sachiko_sohma
Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point. But Partial abortions should be banned except for health reasons. At that point they it can feel, and if you let it go that far you might as well give birth to it. Not only they feel pain, it's trickier to abort at the point and they have a higher rate of botched abortions. 50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.

I don't mean "childless," in that I am without a child but want one/might want one. I am childfree and have no desire to ever be a parent through pregnancy or through adoption; quite the opposite. I am mildly revolted by the idea of being pregnant, even. Feelings aside, I have considered it logically and it is better if I don't reproduce.


That doesn't give you the right for partial abortion, that is illegal or should be. You want to abort then I won't stop you but you have up to a certian point until you can't unless there is a serious medical emergnacy. It's not better to abort if your that far along.
DarkFire168
Gris
DarkFire168
Moniquill
For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.


Have you tried "Well, I support abortion because it's a woman's right to do what she will with her body, and abortion is really just the removal of a fetus from her body, the death is only a biproduct, soooo if a fetus reaches viability a woman needs an abortion in the form of a c-section, whereby they simply remove the fetus from the womb. Ergo, 9 month abortions where they drill a hole in the fetus' skull are unnecessary"?


You are sugar coating things a lot. THey do actually stab babies in their heads, because by law, untill the baby has made its first breathe, it can be killed in such a maner. IT has happened. IT does happen. And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS. So yes, you can abort babies even during the delivering of the baby. And no, its bullcrap that death is a mere bi-product of a C-section. No they are not the same. Because you already know that life isnt going to live, because it cant yet support itself. And they know this. And often times, they use shots to finish it off.
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Articlion
Therefor, destroying that life will be murder, non the less.


In the US, Canada, and Great Britain, murder is defined as "illegal killing of one person by another with malice aforethought." Abortion fails this definition for three reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards the fetus, and third, a fetus doesn't qualify as a person.

Articlion
It should be considered a child.


Why?

Articlion
It is a growing child, not yet matured. To abort it at that stage, would be like shooting a 17 year old, because its okay to, he isnt fully mature.


This is fallacious; a 17 year old is a complete organism. A fetus is not. The 17 year old is not physically dependant upon the body of another person for its moment to moment survival. A fetus is.

Articlion
If it threatens the life of the mother, I would say yes, because that is putting her life at risk. And one shouldnt gamble with lives of others.


Every pregnancy places the woman's life at risk.

Articlion
People say some pretty dumb inhumane things when it comes to abortion, and I have to ask myself, where is your heart at?


In my upper rib cage, just slightly left of center.
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Articlion
A Human is a Human is a Human.


And a human =/= person.

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Sperm cells and egg cells are incomplete humans, they ar
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e pieces of humans. However, as soon as those two meet. That is a human.


Yes. But not a person.

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That is a complete developing human.
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DNA does not a person make.

Therefor, destroying that life will be murder, non the less.


Murder is a specific legal term requiring the victim to be a legal person. Legal personhood commences at birth. By definition, a fetus is not born. Therefore, not a person. Therefore, not murder.

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It should be considered a child. It is a growing child, not yet matured.


A child is between the ages of 2 and 12, or the stages of infancy and puberty. Anyone pregnant with a child should have that checked out. They're overdue.

You are using child for emotional impact, as well, in order to make people picture fully grown children. Pretty cheap.

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To abort it at that stage, would be like shooting a 17 year old, because its okay to, he isnt fully mature.


Except a 17 year old isn't living in my uterus agaisnt my will. I can walk away from a 17 year old. I can't walk away from a fetus.

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Therefor it should not be acceptable to abort a child, in almost all circumstances.


Good thing no one's aborting children.

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If it threatens the life of the mother, I would say yes, because that is putting her life at risk. And one shouldnt gamble with lives of others.


Yet you would gamble with a woman's life and sanity for a potential fetus that might not even be born.

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People say some pretty dumb inhumane things when it comes to abortion, and I have to ask myself, where is your heart at?


With the woman, who is alive, sentient, and who will suffer mentally and physically if forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.
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Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.
Gris
sachiko_sohma
Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point. But Partial abortions should be banned except for health reasons. At that point they it can feel, and if you let it go that far you might as well give birth to it. Not only they feel pain, it's trickier to abort at the point and they have a higher rate of botched abortions. 50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.

I don't mean "childless," in that I am without a child but want one/might want one. I am childfree and have no desire to ever be a parent through pregnancy or through adoption; quite the opposite. I am mildly revolted by the idea of being pregnant, even. Feelings aside, I have considered it logically and it is better if I don't reproduce.


Then please, for the love of all that is DarkFireish, make sure you watch your bodily health like crazy. I'd be horrified to find out you had an abortion at 9 months. *shuffles his feet* Please?
sachiko_sohma
That doesn't give you the right for partial abortion, that is illegal or should be. You want to abort then I won't stop you but you have up to a certian point until you can't unless there is a serious medical emergnacy. It's not better to abort if your that far along.

As it's illegal, I'm aware I don't have the right to an elective abortion at that stage. But I still support the idea, for any woman.


Here's my own case, if you're interested: I am childfree, and not only do I know I would not be a good parent, but I have no desire to be one, to add to the human population at all, or to give a child to the adoption system or someone else to raise in my stead.

The idea of being pregnant disturbs me.

I am asexual. The idea of having *sex* disturbs me, and if I were to become pregnant there's a fair chance it would have been due to rape. Add those traumas to everything else up there.

Almost *everything* in me would be telling me to abort, and even if I couldn't trust my emotions I am overall a logical person. My reason would win out over compassion for the unborn child - yes, and at that point I could consider it a child.


I don't claim that what I would do would be fair, but it would still be the best choice I think I could make.
Articlion
DarkFire168
Gris
DarkFire168
Moniquill
For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.


Have you tried "Well, I support abortion because it's a woman's right to do what she will with her body, and abortion is really just the removal of a fetus from her body, the death is only a biproduct, soooo if a fetus reaches viability a woman needs an abortion in the form of a c-section, whereby they simply remove the fetus from the womb. Ergo, 9 month abortions where they drill a hole in the fetus' skull are unnecessary"?


You are sugar coating things a lot. THey do actually stab babies in their heads, because by law, untill the baby has made its first breathe, it can be killed in such a maner. IT has happened. IT does happen. And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS. So yes, you can abort babies even during the delivering of the baby. And no, its bullcrap that death is a mere bi-product of a C-section. No they are not the same. Because you already know that life isnt going to live, because it cant yet support itself. And they know this. And often times, they use shots to finish it off.


You're an idiot. That's not how abortions work, if you can't actually do research on a subject, then stfu.
Moniquill
sachiko_sohma

Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point.


That's NOT what childfree means. Having no kids makes you childless. WANTING no kids and being very convicted and adamant in that decision makes you CHILDFREE. It's an entire movement and lifestyle centered on the ideal of not having children at all, ever.


sachiko_sohma
50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.


Evidence of any kind, please?


Heres an artical I read

The Sunday Times - Britain
November 27, 2005

A GOVERNMENT agency is launching an inquiry into doctors� reports that up to 50 babies a year are born alive after botched National Health Service abortions.

The investigation, by the Confidential Enquiry into Maternal and Child Health (CEMACH), comes amid growing unease among clinicians over a legal ambiguity that could see them being charged with infanticide.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which regulates methods of abortion, has also mounted its own investigation.

Its guidelines say that babies aborted after more than 21 weeks and six days of gestation should have their hearts stopped by an injection of potassium chloride before being delivered. In practice, few doctors are willing or able to perform the delicate procedure.

For the abortion of younger foetuses, labour is induced by drugs in the expectation that the infant will not survive the birth process. Guidelines say that doctors should ensure that the drugs they use prevent such babies being alive at birth.

In practice, according to Stuart Campbell, former professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at St George�s hospital, London, a number do survive.

�They can be born breathing and crying at 19 weeks� gestation,� he said. �I am not anti-abortion, but as far as I am concerned this is sub-standard medicine.�

The number of terminations carried out in the 18th week of pregnancy or later has risen from 5,166 in 1994 to 7,432 last year. Prenatal diagnosis for conditions such as Down�s syndrome is increasing and foetuses with the condition are routinely aborted, even though many might be capable of leading fulfilling lives. In the past decade, doctors� skill in saving the lives of premature babies has improved radically: at least 70%-80% of babies in their 23rd or 24th week of gestation now survive long-term.

Abortion on demand is allowed in Britain up to 24 weeks � more than halfway through a normal pregnancy and the highest legal limit for such terminations in Europe. France and Germany permit �social� abortions only up to the 10th and 12th weeks respectively.

Doctors are increasingly uneasy about aborting babies who could be born alive. �If viability is the basis on which they set the 24-week limit for abortion, then the simplest answer is to change the law and reduce the upper limit to 18 weeks,� said Campbell, who last year published a book showing images of foetuses� facial expressions and �walking� movements taken with a form of 3-D ultrasound.

The Department of Health was alerted three months ago to the issue of babies surviving failed terminations. In August clinicians in Manchester published an analysis of 31 such babies born in northwest England between 1996 and 2001.

�If a baby is born alive following a failed abortion and then dies (because of lack of care), you could potentially be charged with murder,� said Shantala Vadeyar, a consultant obstetrician at South Manchester University Hospitals NHS Trust, who led the study.

A systematic investigation of data collected through the CEMACH indicated that there are at least 50 cases a year nationwide in which babies survive abortion attempts.

�First sight of our data suggests this is happening,� said Shona Golightly, the agency�s research director. She said official confirmation of the figures would be available next year.

It is not known how many babies who survive attempted abortions go on to live into adulthood.

Paul Clarke, a neonatal intensive care specialist in Norwich, has treated a boy born at 24 weeks after three failed abortion attempts. The mother decided to keep the child, who is now two years old but is suffering what doctors call �significant ongoing medical problems�.

�The survival of this child was not recorded in any official statistics,� Clarke said. �There is nothing at the moment to force abortion practitioners to account for their failures.�

The issue will be highlighted by Gianna Jessen, 28, who survived an attempt to abort her. She is to speak at a parliamentary meeting on December 6 organised by the Alive and Kicking campaign, which is lobbying for a reduction of the abortion limit to 18 weeks.

Jessen, a musician from Nashville, Tennessee, was left with cerebral palsy but is to run in the London marathon next April to raise funds for fellow sufferers.

�If abortion is about women�s rights, then what were my rights?� she asked.

�If people are going to talk about abortion, then it�s important for them to know that these are babies that can be born alive and survive.�
DarkFire168
Then please, for the love of all that is DarkFireish, make sure you watch your bodily health like crazy. I'd be horrified to find out you had an abortion at 9 months. *shuffles his feet* Please?

I would be horrified if I had to.
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.
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Articlion
A Human is a Human is a Human. Sperm cells and egg cells are incomplete humans, they are pieces of humans. However, as soon as those two meet. That is a human. That is a complete developing human.


No, it is not a complete human yet. It has yet to form jack s**t, and until it completely forms everything nessassary for a complete human (nervious system, organs, funtional brain), it is not a complete human.

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Therefor, destroying that life will be murder, non the less.


Look up the definition of murder and try again.

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It should be considered a child.


Why?

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It is a growing child, not yet matured.


Wrong. It IS growing, but it's not maturing; it's forming.

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To abort it at that stage, would be like shooting a 17 year old, because its okay to, he isnt fully mature.


Again, forming. Not maturing.

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Therefor it should not be acceptable to abort a child, in almost all circumstances.


What stage are you referring to? Because, if you kill a newborn, it's not abortion anymore, it's infancide, and if you strangle a 3 year old, it's murder play out.

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If it threatens the life of the mother, I would say yes, because that is putting her life at risk.


OK. Her life =/= fetus's. So, how is is possible for the fetus to be able to put its non-existant rights over hers if her life is of more value?

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And one shouldnt gamble with lives of others.


Gambling is what my mother does on the weekends. Abortion is not gambling.

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People say some pretty dumb inhumane things when it comes to abortion, and I have to ask myself, where is your heart at?


Above my left toe; I put it there for safe keeping. whee

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