The Abortion Debate

[DarkFire168]

Gris

DarkFire168

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.

Have you tried "Well, I support abortion because it's a woman's right to do what she will with her body, and abortion is really just the removal of a fetus from her body, the death is only a biproduct, soooo if a fetus reaches viability a woman needs an abortion in the form of a c-section, whereby they simply remove the fetus from the womb. Ergo, 9 month abortions where they drill a hole in the fetus' skull are unnecessary"?

[rweghrheh]

Gris

Talon-chan

Gris

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.

Why abort? Why not just deliver the fetus? I mean if it is two days away from birth... why not induce birth? or perform a C-section? I mean, in order to abort it that late into the pregnancy they're pretty much going to have to induce birth anyway.

I support people making these choices for themselves, and a born woman does take precedence over an unborn fetus even at that late a date.

Personally, I would want the option. If I were pregnant, I'd terminate as soon as possible after I found out under normal circumstances. But in the (unlikely, admittedly) case that they were *not* normal circumstances...? I'd rather abort even after viability than reproduce.

If people do decide abort, it's better sooner then later. At that point it should be illegal expect for health problems.

[DarkFire168]

Nethilia

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).

What? You can not know you're pregnant? confused How the frick is that possible?

[My credit card number is]

Gris

Talon-chan

Gris

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.

Why abort? Why not just deliver the fetus? I mean if it is two days away from birth... why not induce birth? or perform a C-section? I mean, in order to abort it that late into the pregnancy they're pretty much going to have to induce birth anyway.

I support people making these choices for themselves, and a born woman does take precedence over an unborn fetus even at that late a date.

Personally, I would want the option. If I were pregnant, I'd terminate as soon as possible after I found out under normal circumstances. But in the (unlikely, admittedly) case that they were *not* normal circumstances...? I'd rather abort even after viability than reproduce.

Perhaps it isn't an entirely realistic extreme? If a person doesn't want a kid you'd think she'd notice her body completely out of whack weeks before that late in pregnancy, not to mention the parasitic bulge in her abdomen. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, as I hadn't really thought this far into the extreme before, but logically if it is developed enough to survive on its own at that point wouldn't that be better, especially if, as Moniquill pointed out (assuming I read correctly -- it's rather late and I'm pretty tired), it would probably have to be removed before being aborted in the first place?

[Iburnaga]

Huh, This has been rather fun to watch. I don't know if it's much to contribute but what the hell.

It's woman's body...yaddaydaayadaa. Quite frankly she could line her vaginal walls with iron studs ;shiver;(And yes being male doesn't stop me from feeling that, OW.) the governement shouldn't have a say. The only case in which I disagree with abortion is when the child is about to come into the world or the third trimester.

[rweghrheh]

DarkFire168

Nethilia

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).

What? You can not know you're pregnant? confused How the frick is that possible?

Yes it's possible unlikly but possible. Some one for some reson still get their period so they think their not pregnant and don't get the test done. And if they don't gain much weight or have any visable side-effects she can go on without not even knowing, and few even gave birth without knowing they were pregnant. This is rare but has happened.

[Moniquill]

Nethilia

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).

True enough. But in many cases drug-induced labor of a premie fetus is actually LESS taxing than the D&X would be.

Mind you, I'm not for LEGISLATION of any kind that FORCES a woman to undergo c-section or induced labor. I'm just not fully in support of choosing to abort post viability. I mean, totally remove it from your body, but if it can manage to breath on its own after you've done so then you don't have a fetus anymore. You have a neonate.

[Moniquill]

Gris

Moniquill

See, as rampantly choice as I am, I don't support post-viable abortion. Mind you, if the fetus is for any reason not wholly viable - and by viable I mean expected to thrive - then go right ahead. But I figure if you've waited until the thing could arguably survive WITHOUT tons of medical intervention you might as well just c-section it out or induce labor if you want to end your pregnancy. Once it can qualify as a seperate organism I tend to class it as infanticide rather than abortion. Not that there aren't situationally defensible stances for infanticide, mind you.

It's not something I'd be able to decide easily for myself - or rather, the *logical* decision would be simple, but steeling myself to carry through with what I can also see as infanticide would be much more difficult.

I'm curious. What stances are those? Or is that OT?

I'd say it's OT. Want to continue in PM?

[Gris]

DarkFire168

Have you tried "Well, I support abortion because it's a woman's right to do what she will with her body, and abortion is really just the removal of a fetus from her body, the death is only a biproduct, soooo if a fetus reaches viability a woman needs an abortion in the form of a c-section, whereby they simply remove the fetus from the womb. Ergo, 9 month abortions where they drill a hole in the fetus' skull are unnecessary"?

Yes. However, I still then must consider "and what if the woman does not want to reproduce?" - I am childfree myself, so perhaps this occurs to me more easily than some. If I were somehow unaware of or unable to terminate the pregnancy until around/after viability, I would still want to terminate.

I think it would be worse to add to the human population than to abort a viable fetus.

I cannot see myself as a good parent, but at the same time cannot abdicate responsibility for a child of mine to the current adoption systems.

I cannot find another conclusion: I would want the option to abort at any point.

Also, even if it were different for me, I can't make that kind of choice for other people.

[Nethilia]

DarkFire168

Nethilia

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).

What? You can not know you're pregnant? confused How the frick is that possible?

Gain very little weight, be a big girl, spot the entire time and not realise that's not a period (especially if a woman has endometriosis), be out of touch with your body, etc.

[Moniquill]

DarkFire168

What? You can not know you're pregnant? confused How the frick is that possible?

Frighteningly easy if you have irregular cycles. Some women continue to bleed through pregnancy. Some women gain and lose weight so frequently that they wouldn't notice weight gain. Some women gain very little weight from pregnancy. Some women experience no adverse symptoms. If you aren't sick in the morning, you aren't gining a lot of weight, and your period keeps coming (Or wasn't expected to come because you're a young teen/supposedly menopausal/have a hormone disorder/ are on depo-provera or sesonale/ are of low body weight/ are doing drugs) why would you suspect pregnancy? The mother of my eldest brother's second and third children didn't know she was pregnant until well into her sixth month, when a doctor at a DETOX CENTER told her. She'd been missing her period for over a year due to cocaine use.

[Nethilia]

Moniquill

Nethilia

Moniquill

For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).

True enough. But in many cases drug-induced labor of a premie fetus is actually LESS taxing than the D&X would be.

Mind you, I'm not for LEGISLATION of any kind that FORCES a woman to undergo c-section or induced labor. I'm just not fully in support of choosing to abort post viability. I mean, totally remove it from your body, but if it can manage to breath on its own after you've done so then you don't have a fetus anymore. You have a neonate.

That makes sense. Take it out whole, and if it doesn't die, don't kill it.

[rweghrheh]

Gris

DarkFire168

Have you tried "Well, I support abortion because it's a woman's right to do what she will with her body, and abortion is really just the removal of a fetus from her body, the death is only a biproduct, soooo if a fetus reaches viability a woman needs an abortion in the form of a c-section, whereby they simply remove the fetus from the womb. Ergo, 9 month abortions where they drill a hole in the fetus' skull are unnecessary"?

Yes. However, I still then must consider "and what if the woman does not want to reproduce?" - I am childfree myself, so perhaps this occurs to me more easily than some. If I were somehow unaware of or unable to terminate the pregnancy until around/after viability, I would still want to terminate.

I think it would be worse to add to the human population than to abort a viable fetus.

I cannot see myself as a good parent, but at the same time cannot abdicate responsibility for a child of mine to the current adoption systems.

I cannot find another conclusion: I would want the option to abort at any point.

Also, even if it were different for me, I can't make that kind of choice for other people.

Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point. But Partial abortions should be banned except for health reasons. At that point they it can feel, and if you let it go that far you might as well give birth to it. Not only they feel pain, it's trickier to abort at the point and they have a higher rate of botched abortions. 50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.

[SunflowerGoddess]

Talon-chan

I'm about to go to bed... it's nearly two thirty here in the Eastern Time zone... if anyone is interested in writing a bit on father's rights, or perhaps the whole "face the consequences of choosing sex" arguments I'd greatly appreciate it. Feel free to either PM it to me, or just post it here u.u;;

I'd like to write the whole "facing the consequences" bit, if you don't mind.

[Gris]

sachiko_sohma

Seeing has I have no kids and never been pregnant myself I am free of children at this point. But Partial abortions should be banned except for health reasons. At that point they it can feel, and if you let it go that far you might as well give birth to it. Not only they feel pain, it's trickier to abort at the point and they have a higher rate of botched abortions. 50 babie a year or so were born cause of botch attemps, they either died soon after or had server health and mental problems.

I don't mean "childless," in that I am without a child but want one/might want one. I am childfree and have no desire to ever be a parent through pregnancy or through adoption; quite the opposite. I am mildly revolted by the idea of being pregnant, even. Feelings aside, I have considered it logically and it is better if I don't reproduce.