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orlandolyn
First, I'm pro-choice.
Second, I can't understand how someone against abortion can call themselves pro-life when the fact remains that by illegalizing abortions more women will die.


Which is why I am not hesitant to call them pro-fetus. Many so-called "pro-lifers" appear to only care about life from conception to birth.
Moniquill's avatar

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Resident Lune
Mistress DragonFlame
Besides, if I was in that circum stance, I would wish to be aborted rather then forcing my mother to birth me, then leave me in a Racist Baby Store.


First, it's circumstance.

Second, as someone who was put in one of those "Racist Baby Stores" as you eloquently put it, I am offended by your perception that children who are not aborted would be better off dead anyway, when compared to being put up for adoption. Considering the fact that I, myself, am adopted.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults, just like many other things. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb.


It's not that we (those who oppose placing infants for adoption) assert that the infants would be better off dead. It's that we assert that it would be grossly irreponsible of US to knowingly create infants and them place them into the flawed system.

Adoption does not replace abortion.

Cost of live birth in the US:
According to babycenter.com
ďThe cost of a normal vaginal birth for a self-pay patient with a one-day stay ranged from $2,500 to $3,000. If, however, things do not go as you plan and you end up being delivered by cesarean section, then the cost will be significantly higher.Ē

An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion youíre getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth.

Mind you, that doesnít include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not.

Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. In order to place a child for adoption, one must first carry it to term and undergo all the physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications of that process. Itís generally a very much life-altering experience, it makes you undergo physical changes, many of them permanent, it alters your brain chemistry, and donít forget, unless you cloister yourself away for the entire duration, it causes all kinds of social speculation among your friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers on the street, etc. Imagine being pregnant unintentionally with every intention of forking the infant over to waiting adoptee parents upon its birth. What do you think every time some random person lays their hand on your abdomen on the subway and congratulates you?

Adoption is viewed, by many, as a very socially irresponsible act. I personally think that it is far more wrong to bring into the world a child that you do not want and cannot care for, expecting others to bear the expense (mental, physical, financial) of raising it, than it is to make sure that the child never exists in the first place. Adoption doesn't necessarily assure you the knowledge that the child that you created will be cared for and provided for and raised in a way that you would agree with. You might never have contact with the child again, knowing only that you created one, not whether it is well, or whether it is even alive. The current system of Adoption in this country is deplorable, and until every single orphanage and foster home worldwide is empty and there's still a massive demand for children, adoption has proven itself not to be the end-all-be-all fixit solution. While I feel for the plight of the childless who seek offspring, it is not the job of the unintentionally pregnant to play broodmares for them.

Also, there is the argument that the existence of another human being at all is a problem. I personally could never live with myself knowing that I had created a new human, one that would continue to consume resources long after my death and one that would in all likelihood breed and continue the cycle, no matter WHO was footing the effort and the bill.

Racism in adoption

There is no lack of unwanted children in this world. If parents are awaiting a child to love, itís generally because they have criteria that arenít being met.

Take for example, this:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/19821/
ďSo. It wasn't about babies after all, but about white babies. They didn't tell us that in religion class, nor did they mention it at the march. But wait! Open any newspaper and you can find couples advertising, selling themselves as loving parents who wish to complete their lives with your baby. Yes. Your white baby.Ē
Donít believe the article? Check this out: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html
Choose any family, then click the Ďlearn more about our familyí link. Itíll send you to a chart outlining the family and the criteria they seek in an infant. Hereís the most common answer: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/families/danny_michelle/our_family.html
Newborn. Caucasian. No special needs.
Itís not that there arenít hundreds of thousands of unwanted and unloved children already existing in the world, desperately needing homesÖ itís that they donít fit the acceptable profile.

For every shiny new baby you add to the system, another existing child doesnít get adopted.
Meet Dominique and Ivy.

http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3396.html
http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3395.html

They need a family. If I give birth to a perfect, healthy, white newborn, and a loving family adopts it, that's one less family who will consider adopting Dominique and Ivy.



For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.
Resident Lune
Mistress DragonFlame
Besides, if I was in that circum stance, I would wish to be aborted rather then forcing my mother to birth me, then leave me in a Racist Baby Store.


First, it's circumstance.

Second, as someone who was put in one of those "Racist Baby Stores" as you eloquently put it, I am offended by your perception that children who are not aborted would be better off dead anyway, when compared to being put up for adoption. Considering the fact that I, myself, am adopted.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults, just like many other things. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb.

Edit: And before any assumptions are made by anyone? My position on abortion is moot. My focus is solely on this person's position on adoption, and nothing more. I'd rather not touch the abortion part of this issue with a ten-foot pole, and thus this will be my only post in this thread.

The problem with the adoption debate is that pro-lifers would rather put any to-be child up for adoption than have it aborted -- most fetuses haven't all reached a stage in pregnancy when they can survive free of the womb.

(Note: I am not assuming you to be a pro-lifer.)
Moniquill
Resident Lune
Mistress DragonFlame
Besides, if I was in that circum stance, I would wish to be aborted rather then forcing my mother to birth me, then leave me in a Racist Baby Store.


First, it's circumstance.

Second, as someone who was put in one of those "Racist Baby Stores" as you eloquently put it, I am offended by your perception that children who are not aborted would be better off dead anyway, when compared to being put up for adoption. Considering the fact that I, myself, am adopted.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults, just like many other things. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb.


It's not that we (those who oppose placing infants for adoption) assert that the infants would be better off dead. It's that we assert that it would be grossly irreponsible of US to knowingly create infants and them place them into the flawed system.

Adoption does not replace abortion.

Cost of live birth in the US:
According to babycenter.com
ďThe cost of a normal vaginal birth for a self-pay patient with a one-day stay ranged from $2,500 to $3,000. If, however, things do not go as you plan and you end up being delivered by cesarean section, then the cost will be significantly higher.Ē

An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion youíre getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth.

Mind you, that doesnít include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not.

Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. In order to place a child for adoption, one must first carry it to term and undergo all the physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications of that process. Itís generally a very much life-altering experience, it makes you undergo physical changes, many of them permanent, it alters your brain chemistry, and donít forget, unless you cloister yourself away for the entire duration, it causes all kinds of social speculation among your friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers on the street, etc. Imagine being pregnant unintentionally with every intention of forking the infant over to waiting adoptee parents upon its birth. What do you think every time some random person lays their hand on your abdomen on the subway and congratulates you?

Adoption is viewed, by many, as a very socially irresponsible act. I personally think that it is far more wrong to bring into the world a child that you do not want and cannot care for, expecting others to bear the expense (mental, physical, financial) of raising it, than it is to make sure that the child never exists in the first place. Adoption doesn't necessarily assure you the knowledge that the child that you created will be cared for and provided for and raised in a way that you would agree with. You might never have contact with the child again, knowing only that you created one, not whether it is well, or whether it is even alive. The current system of Adoption in this country is deplorable, and until every single orphanage and foster home worldwide is empty and there's still a massive demand for children, adoption has proven itself not to be the end-all-be-all fixit solution. While I feel for the plight of the childless who seek offspring, it is not the job of the unintentionally pregnant to play broodmares for them.

Also, there is the argument that the existence of another human being at all is a problem. I personally could never live with myself knowing that I had created a new human, one that would continue to consume resources long after my death and one that would in all likelihood breed and continue the cycle, no matter WHO was footing the effort and the bill.

Racism in adoption

There is no lack of unwanted children in this world. If parents are awaiting a child to love, itís generally because they have criteria that arenít being met.

Take for example, this:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/19821/
ďSo. It wasn't about babies after all, but about white babies. They didn't tell us that in religion class, nor did they mention it at the march. But wait! Open any newspaper and you can find couples advertising, selling themselves as loving parents who wish to complete their lives with your baby. Yes. Your white baby.Ē
Donít believe the article? Check this out: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html
Choose any family, then click the Ďlearn more about our familyí link. Itíll send you to a chart outlining the family and the criteria they seek in an infant. Hereís the most common answer: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/families/danny_michelle/our_family.html
Newborn. Caucasian. No special needs.
Itís not that there arenít hundreds of thousands of unwanted and unloved children already existing in the world, desperately needing homesÖ itís that they donít fit the acceptable profile.

For every shiny new baby you add to the system, another existing child doesnít get adopted.
Meet Dominique and Ivy.

http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3396.html
http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3395.html

They need a family. If I give birth to a perfect, healthy, white newborn, and a loving family adopts it, that's one less family who will consider adopting Dominique and Ivy.



For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.


Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

And you're forgetting the approximately 3,000 dollars a women has to shell out for pre-natal vitamins, extra food, doctors visits, etc. And we're unsure of the X figure of how much they lose from missing work, and other misc. random problems.
Moniquill's avatar

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DarkFire168

And you're forgetting the approximately 3,000 dollars a women has to shell out for pre-natal vitamins, extra food, doctors visits, etc. And we're unsure of the X figure of how much they lose from missing work, and other misc. random problems.


Figured I'd covred that with "Mind you, that doesnít include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not. " but you're right, I didn't mentioned the nitty gritty life-alterign details of the pregnancy itself. I might have the edit my C&P for this Brave New Thread with such people in it.
DarkFire168
Moniquill
For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.
DarkFire168
Moniquill
Resident Lune
Mistress DragonFlame
Besides, if I was in that circum stance, I would wish to be aborted rather then forcing my mother to birth me, then leave me in a Racist Baby Store.


First, it's circumstance.

Second, as someone who was put in one of those "Racist Baby Stores" as you eloquently put it, I am offended by your perception that children who are not aborted would be better off dead anyway, when compared to being put up for adoption. Considering the fact that I, myself, am adopted.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults, just like many other things. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb.


It's not that we (those who oppose placing infants for adoption) assert that the infants would be better off dead. It's that we assert that it would be grossly irreponsible of US to knowingly create infants and them place them into the flawed system.

Adoption does not replace abortion.

Cost of live birth in the US:
According to babycenter.com
ďThe cost of a normal vaginal birth for a self-pay patient with a one-day stay ranged from $2,500 to $3,000. If, however, things do not go as you plan and you end up being delivered by cesarean section, then the cost will be significantly higher.Ē

An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion youíre getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth.

Mind you, that doesnít include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not.

Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. In order to place a child for adoption, one must first carry it to term and undergo all the physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications of that process. Itís generally a very much life-altering experience, it makes you undergo physical changes, many of them permanent, it alters your brain chemistry, and donít forget, unless you cloister yourself away for the entire duration, it causes all kinds of social speculation among your friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers on the street, etc. Imagine being pregnant unintentionally with every intention of forking the infant over to waiting adoptee parents upon its birth. What do you think every time some random person lays their hand on your abdomen on the subway and congratulates you?

Adoption is viewed, by many, as a very socially irresponsible act. I personally think that it is far more wrong to bring into the world a child that you do not want and cannot care for, expecting others to bear the expense (mental, physical, financial) of raising it, than it is to make sure that the child never exists in the first place. Adoption doesn't necessarily assure you the knowledge that the child that you created will be cared for and provided for and raised in a way that you would agree with. You might never have contact with the child again, knowing only that you created one, not whether it is well, or whether it is even alive. The current system of Adoption in this country is deplorable, and until every single orphanage and foster home worldwide is empty and there's still a massive demand for children, adoption has proven itself not to be the end-all-be-all fixit solution. While I feel for the plight of the childless who seek offspring, it is not the job of the unintentionally pregnant to play broodmares for them.

Also, there is the argument that the existence of another human being at all is a problem. I personally could never live with myself knowing that I had created a new human, one that would continue to consume resources long after my death and one that would in all likelihood breed and continue the cycle, no matter WHO was footing the effort and the bill.

Racism in adoption

There is no lack of unwanted children in this world. If parents are awaiting a child to love, itís generally because they have criteria that arenít being met.

Take for example, this:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/19821/
ďSo. It wasn't about babies after all, but about white babies. They didn't tell us that in religion class, nor did they mention it at the march. But wait! Open any newspaper and you can find couples advertising, selling themselves as loving parents who wish to complete their lives with your baby. Yes. Your white baby.Ē
Donít believe the article? Check this out: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html
Choose any family, then click the Ďlearn more about our familyí link. Itíll send you to a chart outlining the family and the criteria they seek in an infant. Hereís the most common answer: http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/families/danny_michelle/our_family.html
Newborn. Caucasian. No special needs.
Itís not that there arenít hundreds of thousands of unwanted and unloved children already existing in the world, desperately needing homesÖ itís that they donít fit the acceptable profile.

For every shiny new baby you add to the system, another existing child doesnít get adopted.
Meet Dominique and Ivy.

http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3396.html
http://photolisting.adoption.com/children/3395.html

They need a family. If I give birth to a perfect, healthy, white newborn, and a loving family adopts it, that's one less family who will consider adopting Dominique and Ivy.



For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.


Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

And you're forgetting the approximately 3,000 dollars a women has to shell out for pre-natal vitamins, extra food, doctors visits, etc. And we're unsure of the X figure of how much they lose from missing work, and other misc. random problems.


By then they might as well give birth if their that far along, they can feel pain at that time. Partal abortions, they can feel pain and have a higher chance of the abortion failing.
Gris
DarkFire168
Moniquill
For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.
Why abort? Why not just deliver the fetus? I mean if it is two days away from birth... why not induce birth? or perform a C-section? I mean, in order to abort it that late into the pregnancy they're pretty much going to have to induce birth anyway.
Moniquill's avatar

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Gris
DarkFire168
Moniquill
For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.

Gris supports abortions up to the moment before it pops it's head out of the v****a.

Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.


See, as rampantly choice as I am, I don't support post-viable abortion. Mind you, if the fetus is for any reason not wholly viable - and by viable I mean expected to thrive - then go right ahead. But I figure if you've waited until the thing could arguably survive WITHOUT tons of medical intervention you might as well just c-section it out or induce labor if you want to end your pregnancy. Once it can qualify as a seperate organism I tend to class it as infanticide rather than abortion. Not that there aren't situationally defensible stances for infanticide, mind you.
Talon-chan
Gris
Unhappily true. I would much rather not see it happen, and I'd rather not support it, but it is an extreme of my logic I've not yet been able to beat.
Why abort? Why not just deliver the fetus? I mean if it is two days away from birth... why not induce birth? or perform a C-section? I mean, in order to abort it that late into the pregnancy they're pretty much going to have to induce birth anyway.

I support people making these choices for themselves, and a born woman does take precedence over an unborn fetus even at that late a date.

Personally, I would want the option. If I were pregnant, I'd terminate as soon as possible after I found out under normal circumstances. But in the (unlikely, admittedly) case that they were *not* normal circumstances...? I'd rather abort even after viability than reproduce.
I'm about to go to bed... it's nearly two thirty here in the Eastern Time zone... if anyone is interested in writing a bit on father's rights, or perhaps the whole "face the consequences of choosing sex" arguments I'd greatly appreciate it. Feel free to either PM it to me, or just post it here u.u;;
Moniquill
DarkFire168

And you're forgetting the approximately 3,000 dollars a women has to shell out for pre-natal vitamins, extra food, doctors visits, etc. And we're unsure of the X figure of how much they lose from missing work, and other misc. random problems.


Figured I'd covred that with "Mind you, that doesnít include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not. " but you're right, I didn't mentioned the nitty gritty life-alterign details of the pregnancy itself. I might have the edit my C&P for this Brave New Thread with such people in it.


Oh my. Sorry, didn't see that. *Goes back to playing Makai Kingdom and wondering how he could take over the world*
Nethilia's avatar

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Moniquill


For the record, I've never met anyone who supports abortion at a point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. That's what elective cesarians are for.


I have since become pro-choice up to 50% viability for known pregnancies and up to 80-90% viability for unknown pregnancies.. Don't get me wrong. If a woman just thinks that she's tired of this and wants to quit via abortion, she's probably out of her mind and needs some counseling because...yeah, that's pretty screwed to know and carry that long, and I doubt any woman would do that. If a woman didn't know about the pregnancy and finds out extremely late, they should not be forced to handle it with birth or caesarian. Caesarians are extremely taxing on the body since they are major surgery (so is a D&X).
Moniquill
See, as rampantly choice as I am, I don't support post-viable abortion. Mind you, if the fetus is for any reason not wholly viable - and by viable I mean expected to thrive - then go right ahead. But I figure if you've waited until the thing could arguably survive WITHOUT tons of medical intervention you might as well just c-section it out or induce labor if you want to end your pregnancy. Once it can qualify as a seperate organism I tend to class it as infanticide rather than abortion. Not that there aren't situationally defensible stances for infanticide, mind you.

It's not something I'd be able to decide easily for myself - or rather, the *logical* decision would be simple, but steeling myself to carry through with what I can also see as infanticide would be much more difficult.

I'm curious. What stances are those? Or is that OT?
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sachiko_sohma

By then they might as well give birth if their that far along, they can feel pain at that time. Partal abortions, they can feel pain and have a higher chance of the abortion failing.


Ther's no such thing as a partial abortion, unless you're talking about reduction of multiple fetuses.

The D/X procedure is sometimes labeled incorrectly as 'partial-birth abortion' by certain members of the pro-life movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction


What contitutes a failed abortion by your definition?

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