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Articlion

Few things wrong here, they can and do think inside the womb, so just because they haven't taken thier first breathe doesn't mean they don't htink.


http://women.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17909-1491771,00.html

Articlion
They aren't simple structures the 5-6-7-8-9 month.


Never said they were.

Articlion
They are far more advanced then most of the creatures you had just listed.


Except that not. Because they sure aren't organisms yet. Bacteria trumps fetus in the 'being an organism' department, if not in the biological complexity depertment. Bacteria and other single-celled life forms certainly trump oocyte in terms of biological complexity, though.

Articlion
Plus, a "fetus" is still much more complex then bugs, microbes and many of the things you had listed.


Not really. Ever studied just how biologically complex an arthropod is?

Articlion
And most of what you had just said, is well, irrelevant.


And I can easily say the same about your arguments because they're based on assumptions that I don't support.

Articlion
GOod job, you don't know what your talking about.


Hey, look, Ad Hominem!
Articlion
Few things wrong here, they can and do think inside the womb, so just because they haven't taken thier first breathe doesn't mean they don't htink.

A fetus is obviously missing something bugs have if bugs can function independently.

Articlion
Plus, a "fetus" is still much more complex then bugs, microbes and many of the things you had listed.

While you cited no sources to back up your statement that a fetus can "think" inside the womb (define "think" -- it's completely different prior to beginning to learn language), what difference does it make in this discussion?
Articlion
You should all be lawyers, because you are perverting things horribly. You consider it not murder because by law, it isn't. Well do you think in other countries, where they have tribes, and killing people over stupid petty things is okay. Is that not murder? Or is that that America is Civil? What makes us so civil if we kill babies, harmless beings, that are hopeless without our proper guidance to watch over them. Wow, you really are "Cival" aren't you?

And of course lawyers are all horrible truth-perverting people.

Meanwhile, murder is a legal term, and abortion does not meet the criteria. Therefore, it's not murder. That is simply a fact.

I have no problem with killing. I kill things all the time. I do have a problem with killing people except in self-defense, as that undermines society.

I can see myself committing murder - illegally killing a born person - but none of those circumstances would be normal or even probable ones.


...Are you aware that many of us aren't American?
Moniquill's avatar

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Articlion
Because this is a very natural thing, and our bodies have evolved in such a way, to support life.


Death is also a very natural thing. Our bodies have evolved this way, to DIE.

These are the normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

-- exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
-- altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
-- nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
-- heartburn and indigestion
-- constipation
-- weight gain
-- dizziness and light-headedness
-- bloating, swelling, fluid retention
-- hemmorhoids
-- abdominal cramps
-- yeast infections
-- congested, bloody nose
-- acne and mild skin disorders
-- skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
-- mild to severe backache and strain
-- increased headaches
-- difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
-- increased urination and incontinence
-- bleeding gums
-- pica
-- breast pain and discharge
-- swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
-- difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
-- inability to take regular medications
-- shortness of breath
-- higher blood pressure
-- hair loss
-- tendency to anemia
-- curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
-- infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
-- extreme pain on delivery
-- hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
-- continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

These are the normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

-- stretch marks (worse in younger women)
-- loose skin
-- permanent weight gain or redistribution
-- abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
-- pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
-- changes to breasts
-- varicose veins
-- scarring from episiotomy or c-section
-- other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
-- increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
-- loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

These are the occasional complications and side effects:

-- hyperemesis gravidarum
-- temporary and permanent injury to back
-- severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
-- dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
-- pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
-- eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
-- gestational diabetes
-- placenta previa
-- anemia (which can be life-threatening)
-- thrombocytopenic purpura
-- severe cramping
-- embolism (blood clots)
-- medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
-- diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
-- mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
-- serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
-- hormonal imbalance
-- ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
-- broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone" wink
-- hemorrhage and
-- numerous other complications of delivery
-- refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
-- aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
-- severe post-partum depression and psychosis
-- research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
-- research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
-- research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

These are some less common (but serious) complications:

-- peripartum cardiomyopathy
-- cardiopulmonary arrest
-- magnesium toxicity
-- severe hypoxemia/acidosis
-- massive embolism
-- increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
-- molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
-- malignant arrhythmia
-- circulatory collapse
-- placental abruption
-- obstetric fistula

And a few more permanent side effects:

-- future infertility
-- permanent disability
-- death.
Benighted
sachiko_sohma
Benighted
Articlion
I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.

Oh, right, forgot that women are inferior to men and enjoyed being such, so you're absolutely correct.


I don't think he said that. I believe when he said era of man, he ment humanity as awhole.

I wasn't referencing that. The use of "man" as "humanity" never bothers me. I meant that in response to his insinuating that kidnapping 400 virgins as their trophies was not rape but simply "the spoils of victory," which is the same thing.


Ah o.k., I was abit confused by your post. Their both wrong, as a woman I am just as must human as he is, we're not trophies as like you said. Why do people think less of us because of gender? Yesterday some guy said woman were uneducated when it came to politics, yes some maybe but so is some men. Had nothing to do with gender.
Treacherous Desire
sachiko_sohma
Benighted
Articlion
I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.

Oh, right, forgot that women are inferior to men and enjoyed being such, so you're absolutely correct.


I don't think he said that. I believe when he said era of man, he ment humanity as awhole.


That's what the two quoted bible passages inmply. There were more.

They do come from an anti-bible site, to be warned, however I am fairly certain that they are real bible passages and not made up.

I exerted the rather crude analizations of them.

We were discussing the validity of using the bible and religion in debates about abortion.


Note that these texts are skewed, you must read the complete passages for what they are worth. There ar ethings that led up to the events. They take things and give you mere fragments so that bible bashers can skew things. The media does it all the time to all kinds of people.
Moniquill's avatar

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Articlion

Note that these texts are skewed, you must read the complete passages for what they are worth. There ar ethings that led up to the events. They take things and give you mere fragments so that bible bashers can skew things. The media does it all the time to all kinds of people.


Are you trying to imply that there are circumstances that could possibly lead up to rape being acceptable? That ANY context could possibly make it alright for god to sanction the kidnapping and rape of hundreds of women?
Articlion
Note that these texts are skewed, you must read the complete passages for what they are worth. There ar ethings that led up to the events. They take things and give you mere fragments so that bible bashers can skew things. The media does it all the time to all kinds of people.

That is true; the Bible is often taken out of context. But then, why should your god be any different to different people in different contexts? I mean, besides the fact that the Bible is kind of like a really old version of Jekyll and Hyde. Rape is rape. Why do you think they wanted virgins?

(And with that I'm off to bed about four hours late. Later, chilluns. Even though I'm probably the youngest here.)
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.


Ok, I may not be a woman, but if a woman doesn't want a baby then she should have the choice of going through with the pregnancy. If it was a 5 month thing or less, sure I'd say for such a short time period to just have the damned baby and give it up to adoption; but sadly and painfully a pregnancy is actually a long 6 - 10 month thing. If one doesn't want to basically give up 3 quarters of their year changing their whole lifestyle for something she doesn't want, then she should be able to have an abortion. If someone wasn't able to have an abortion and was forced to have the child even though they didn't want it, then they probally wouldn't take care of the fetus properly...I wouldn't at least.

Also, if someone was rapped and got pregnant, then an abortion can really help you out. Also why would anyone want to keep a child concieved from rape, that'd bring up such wonderful memories looking at it daily. Also, the child itself would probally feel horrible knowing it was concieved because of rape.

What if the baby once born was going to suffer a horrible disease till death. A woman who had a child knowing that was going to happen, is just a cruel b***h in my opinion...Anyone who did that would be.

An abortion has been preformed for many, many, years. Since the dark ages actually. It's been done on many woman as well.

If a condem broke and a woman got pregnant, then the couple obviously didn't want a child, they shouldn't need to have one. The woman shouldn't need to change her whole life around.

Basically, an abortion is a good thing, it helps alot of people out. The fetus isn't exactly living and there's no 100% chance it will ever be living.
sachiko_sohma
Benighted
sachiko_sohma
Benighted
Articlion
I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.

Oh, right, forgot that women are inferior to men and enjoyed being such, so you're absolutely correct.


I don't think he said that. I believe when he said era of man, he ment humanity as awhole.

I wasn't referencing that. The use of "man" as "humanity" never bothers me. I meant that in response to his insinuating that kidnapping 400 virgins as their trophies was not rape but simply "the spoils of victory," which is the same thing.


Ah o.k., I was abit confused by your post. Their both wrong, as a woman I am just as must human as he is, we're not trophies as like you said. Why do people think less of us because of gender? Yesterday some guy said woman were uneducated when it came to politics, yes some maybe but so is some men. Had nothing to do with gender.


Hrm, but so is some men. Well you seem less uneducated right there miss.
Decapitated_Bunny
If it was a 5 month thing or less, sure I'd say for such a short time period to just have the damned baby and give it up to adoption; but sadly and painfully a pregnancy is actually a long 6 - 10 month thing. If one doesn't want to basically give up 3 quarters of their year changing their whole lifestyle for something she doesn't want, then she should be able to have an abortion.

I wouldn't care how long the pregnancy was, myself. I'd still want to terminate, 'cause I don't support adoption and am childfree.
Moniquill
Articlion
Because this is a very natural thing, and our bodies have evolved in such a way, to support life.


Death is also a very natural thing. Our bodies have evolved this way, to DIE.

These are the normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

-- exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
-- altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
-- nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
-- heartburn and indigestion
-- constipation
-- weight gain
-- dizziness and light-headedness
-- bloating, swelling, fluid retention
-- hemmorhoids
-- abdominal cramps
-- yeast infections
-- congested, bloody nose
-- acne and mild skin disorders
-- skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
-- mild to severe backache and strain
-- increased headaches
-- difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
-- increased urination and incontinence
-- bleeding gums
-- pica
-- breast pain and discharge
-- swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
-- difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
-- inability to take regular medications
-- shortness of breath
-- higher blood pressure
-- hair loss
-- tendency to anemia
-- curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
-- infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
-- extreme pain on delivery
-- hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
-- continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

These are the normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

-- stretch marks (worse in younger women)
-- loose skin
-- permanent weight gain or redistribution
-- abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
-- pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
-- changes to breasts
-- varicose veins
-- scarring from episiotomy or c-section
-- other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
-- increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
-- loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

These are the occasional complications and side effects:

-- hyperemesis gravidarum
-- temporary and permanent injury to back
-- severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
-- dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
-- pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
-- eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
-- gestational diabetes
-- placenta previa
-- anemia (which can be life-threatening)
-- thrombocytopenic purpura
-- severe cramping
-- embolism (blood clots)
-- medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
-- diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
-- mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
-- serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
-- hormonal imbalance
-- ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
-- broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone" wink
-- hemorrhage and
-- numerous other complications of delivery
-- refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
-- aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
-- severe post-partum depression and psychosis
-- research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
-- research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
-- research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

These are some less common (but serious) complications:

-- peripartum cardiomyopathy
-- cardiopulmonary arrest
-- magnesium toxicity
-- severe hypoxemia/acidosis
-- massive embolism
-- increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
-- molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
-- malignant arrhythmia
-- circulatory collapse
-- placental abruption
-- obstetric fistula

And a few more permanent side effects:

-- future infertility
-- permanent disability
-- death.


Sure, death is natural, however poking a knife into the back of a babies head while its being born, isn't.
Gris
Decapitated_Bunny
If it was a 5 month thing or less, sure I'd say for such a short time period to just have the damned baby and give it up to adoption; but sadly and painfully a pregnancy is actually a long 6 - 10 month thing. If one doesn't want to basically give up 3 quarters of their year changing their whole lifestyle for something she doesn't want, then she should be able to have an abortion.

I wouldn't care how long the pregnancy was, myself. I'd still want to terminate, 'cause I don't support adoption and am childfree.


If your so child free, why dont you rid your self of those organs? NOt have sex at all?

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