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Treacherous Desire
To bring the subject round to one of my other reasons I believe abortion isn't 'bad'. Africa.

Yes lovely Africa. There is somewhat of necessity to keep a family small in Africa to ensure survival. With the current sex educators saying 'All Protection is Bad', an unavailabilty of contraception and a lack of rights of women in Africa abortion is sometimes the only way they can maintain a small family size. Smaller families' children typically end up more well-nourished and educated having a better chance at surviving. Also, in cases of war, they are more portable.

In early South America, after the western civilization began colonizing 'wild' tribes starting practicing infanticide. Families were to have only two children. And more were considered a burden upon the tribe who could have to leave their village in the middle of the night to avoid those wishing to take them slaves. Additional children slowed up the families and were, hence, killed.

Anyone else care to comment on arbotion... globally?


Different cultures have different views and beliefs, also lot of people are starving in Africa so that can count as a health problem.
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Pyro_unleashed
well... I dont believe in abortion for a few reasons.
One its murder


In the US, Canada, and Great Britain, murder is defined as "illegal killing of one person by another with malice aforethought." Abortion fails this definition for three reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards the fetus, and third, a fetus doesn't qualify as a person.

Pyro_unleashed
two hes alive


We can and do kill many things that are far more advanced than fetii... bacteria, virii, microorganisms... these things we kill merely in the act of being alive. Take a deep breath – and know that you’ve just facilitated the deaths of millions of microorganisms at the hands of your own immune system. We set out purposefully to kill them with drugs, to eradicate them from our homes with chemicals... and then we go on to more advanced forms of life. Insects, small vertebrates... these we kill for being a nuisance. Chickens, pigs, cows... these we engineer and kill by the millions in the interest of food. Rabbits, minks, chinchillas... these we kill for their skins. Cats and dogs, these we kill because they are unwanted and too numerous... Wildlife, entire habitats and ecosystems containing millions of individual living things…these we kill because there are so many humans that we have need of urban expansion. All of these things are more advanced than fetii, and many of them have better cognitive abilities and CAN think and feel and react to pain, and feel anguish and confusion. Yet we kill them. Why is the killing of an inanimate, unthinking, unfeeling non-organism more wrong?

Pyro_unleashed
three im a christian


I'm not. There goes that argument.

Pyro_unleashed
four its still you baby


Except for the part where it's not a baby and I don't want it.
Articlion
Okay you say they are too poor to afford children, so what? Now they have the money to afford traditional abortion opporations? No, I'm pretty sure if they can afford that as a country, they can afford a baby.

The latter is far more expensive than the former.
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Articlion

If you can, do it, because right now its all arm chair philosophy. You've not proven anything or brought up any documents. You ask me to, i've done it, now you do the same and disprove me.


You have yet to prove personhood.

And you assert that there's a magical sky wizard who says it's wrong and therefor we should all believe it.

The burden of proof lies upon the person making a definitive claim.
Treacherous Desire
Benighted
Articlion
And weather is wrong in my eyes doesnt matter, because its wrong in Gods eyes. And the bible speaks out againts abortion.

Where in the Bible? Show me, as if the Bible were of any legal consequence.


I'm probably going to sound like a completely anti-christian b***h here but, if I'm not mistaken the bible also glorifies rape.

Keep in mind I did get this from site I discovered while trying to make biblical allusions for a Lord of the Flies essay.


Judges 21:10-24 NLT


So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Deuteronomy 20:10-14


As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.
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Articlion

Okay you say they are too poor to afford children, so what? Now they have the money to afford traditional abortion opporations? No, I'm pretty sure if they can afford that as a country, they can afford a baby.


Cost of live birth in the US:
According to babycenter.com
“The cost of a normal vaginal birth for a self-pay patient with a one-day stay ranged from $2,500 to $3,000. If, however, things do not go as you plan and you end up being delivered by cesarean section, then the cost will be significantly higher.”

An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion you’re getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth.

Mind you, that doesn’t include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not.


Mind you, that just covers up to BIRTH. If you have a child, and you raise it, you continue shelling money out for 18 years at the very least, and often for the rest of your life. Abortion is a small one-time cost.
Articlion
Treacherous Desire
To bring the subject round to one of my other reasons I believe abortion isn't 'bad'. Africa.

Yes lovely Africa. There is somewhat of necessity to keep a family small in Africa to ensure survival. With the current sex educators saying 'All Protection is Bad', an unavailabilty of contraception and a lack of rights of women in Africa abortion is sometimes the only way they can maintain a small family size. Smaller families' children typically end up more well-nourished and educated having a better chance at surviving. Also, in cases of war, they are more portable.

In early South America, after the western civilization began colonizing 'wild' tribes starting practicing infanticide. Families were to have only two children. And more were considered a burden upon the tribe who could have to leave their village in the middle of the night to avoid those wishing to take them slaves. Additional children slowed up the families and were, hence, killed.

Anyone else care to comment on arbotion... globally?


Okay you say they are too poor to afford children, so what? Now they have the money to afford traditional abortion opporations? No, I'm pretty sure if they can afford that as a country, they can afford a baby.


Abortion in Africa is often free thanks to NGOs. It's not the COUTNRY providing the abortions it is externally funded clinics.

Roughly 1/3 of patients at the abortion clinics have tried to abort on their own either by eating or drinking harmful substances or by other pyshical means.
Articlion
I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.

Oh, right, forgot that women are inferior to men and enjoyed being such, so you're absolutely correct.
Articlion
Treacherous Desire
Benighted
Articlion
And weather is wrong in my eyes doesnt matter, because its wrong in Gods eyes. And the bible speaks out againts abortion.

Where in the Bible? Show me, as if the Bible were of any legal consequence.


I'm probably going to sound like a completely anti-christian b***h here but, if I'm not mistaken the bible also glorifies rape.

Keep in mind I did get this from site I discovered while trying to make biblical allusions for a Lord of the Flies essay.


Judges 21:10-24 NLT


So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Deuteronomy 20:10-14


As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.


...
What do you think they are kidnapping them for.

They certainly aren't taking them to have a skilled cribbage partner.

<.<
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Articlion

I dont see how they GLorify anything but the spoild of victory. There is no rape involved. War is a commen thing in the bible. ITs a commen thing in every era of man. These people faught for the lord.


"When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!"

"They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance"


Newsflash: If these women were nonconsenting, they were RAPED. Marriage does not prevent rape.

Also, chew on this:

http://elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html
Articlion
Mistress DragonFlame
First and formost, it's whither. A very common mistake to make, as there are three different 'whither' (Whither, weather, wither), but that is the correct spelling for what you're trying to put. Normally I would let it slide, but you're using it. A lot.

Articlion
Okay, weather is human or not doesnt matter to you clearly. SO if its a "Person" its not okay to kill them?


Quote:
So when do you classify someone a person?


I do once the baby realises it's surroundings. Before then it's just an animal. However, this is all personal opinion, which differs from person to person.

Quote:
Can you kill a baby prior to one year after its birth then?


Before one year... after it's birth...? What? Please restate the quesiton.

Quote:
Fine not a year, how about a week? Fine you dont like a week? How bout a day? Can you kill a baby a day after is born? Or maybe an hour? Is it a person after an hours up? Do you base a person on experiances?


Pro-choicers, for the most part, grant it upon birth, as does the law. That is what we go by. What YOU go by is different, obviously.

Quote:
Okay, is it a person when its made its first breathe? So where does the fine line between person begin? Please clarify. After how long is it okay to kill a Human?


Again, personal opinions.


You got me on the whither. However, your still wrong. A baby can recognize its surroundings inside the womb. What, you don't think at that time its concious? YOu think that one second before birth makes much of a difference? honestly, if you think that, well, your dumb. To put it plain and simple, what does one second make of it? Do you really think it doesnt think untill the very second its born? Lets think about this shall we? Scientists have done studies on babies and their concious flow of things. Babies do think inside that womb. So therefor, yes its a person.


Wrong. A fetus is incapable of thought until at least the 7th month of pregnancy because it doesn't have a fracking brain. And even when it DOES have one, it doesn't work because it takes between 5 and 9 breaths of oxygen to inflate the lungs and jumpstart the cerebral cortex. Not a single reputable scientist has ever shown data that has said otherwise. If you can't or won't provide proof of your errant claims, don't make them.
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Articlion
You got me on the whither.


Damn straight. Don't doubt the girl who looks things up when she is in doubt. cool

Quote:
However, your still wrong.


As you say in your opinion. My opinion says rather nasty things about you, but that doesn't make them true, or allows me to say them.

Quote:
A baby can recognize its surroundings inside the womb.


LIES! A fetus, until birth, is in deep unconsiousness which is likely due to the fact it has't breathed yet, and conisous thought requires (not only a fully developed brain) but more oxigyen (sp?) then it is getting.

Quote:
What, you don't think at that time its concious?


I don't think. I know.

Quote:
YOu think that one second before birth makes much of a difference? honestly, if you think that, well, your dumb.


Really, Mr. Pot, is that so? wink

Quote:
To put it plain and simple, what does one second make of it?


A second can mean life and death, personhood and abortion to a lot of people, all the time. It takes only a fraction of a second to make a decision. Pull the trigger, or don't? Keep the pregancy or not?

Quote:
Do you really think it doesnt think untill the very second its born?


I know it doesn't 'think' as we are doing now, until it, again, realizes its surroundings. Please keep tabs on who says what, and believes what because if you accuse a black person of being racist agianst black people simply because they're arguing against you with white people that people on welfair are... I don't know, more mecian then blank, would make you seem rather unprepaired.

Quote:
Lets think about this shall we?


Irony at it's finest.

Quote:
Scientists have done studies on babies and their concious flow of things. Babies do think inside that womb. So therefor, yes its a person.


Fetii have brain waves in womb. They think just as much as a person in acoma.
Treacherous Desire
Pyro_unleashed
well... I dont believe in abortion for a few reasons.
One its murder
two hes alive
three im a christian
four its still you baby


T'ist murder.

To be murder it has to be illegal AND there has to be malie intent/forethough.

Both of which are lacking.


You should all be lawyers, because you are perverting things horribly. You consider it not murder because by law, it isn't. Well do you think in other countries, where they have tribes, and killing people over stupid petty things is okay. Is that not murder? Or is that that America is Civil? What makes us so civil if we kill babies, harmless beings, that are hopeless without our proper guidance to watch over them. Wow, you really are "Cival" aren't you?

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