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My Conscience
Why do you all have to be such asswipes about it and jump on my back.


No one jumped on your back. This is a debate, man. Some people will point out how your arguments don't make sense, invalid, or plain dumb. Don't let it bother you, no one's out to get you.

My Conscience
Lets say you used to be a binge drinker. Your whole family goes out to dinner while you stay at home. They all die because a drunk driver hit their car. Wouldn't this make you stop binge drinking? Also, I saw my fathers last few breaths. It happened a couple months ago. When you see someone that fought so hard to live, he overcame countless things that the doctors still are bewildered about. Then he is gone. You see how someone can be with you one minute and gone the next. Life is to short. I knew plenty of things my father wanted to do but was unable to because he passed away. Since life is so short I believe everyones life is important and no ones life is more important than anothers.


And that is your opinion, and you have the right to that. What I'd like to know is, how does that give you the right to infringe on others' rights to choose to keep their pregnancy?

I am sorry you lost your father, man. I've lost family too. But the comparison about binge drinking and abortion still has no connection.

Believe what you want, you're free to have an opinion. Your opinion, and your belief, however, does not justify you to infringe on others' right to CHOOSE.

Think about it this way, there are many pro-choicers what would never EVER get an abortion, they find it wrong. However, they also know that's just THEIR opinion and choice, so they support others having a CHOICE. They also recognize the chances of getting pregnant regardless of how safe the sex was, and they may not want to keep it.
My Conscience
Why do you all have to be such asswipes about it and jump on my back.
Lets say you used to be a binge drinker. Your whole family goes out to dinner while you stay at home. They all die because a drunk driver hit their car. Wouldn't this make you stop binge drinking? Also, I saw my fathers last few breaths. It happened a couple months ago. When you see someone that fought so hard to live, he overcame countless things that the doctors still are bewildered about. Then he is gone. You see how someone can be with you one minute and gone the next. Life is to short. I knew plenty of things my father wanted to do but was unable to because he passed away. Since life is so short I believe everyones life is important and no ones life is more important than anothers.

See, and I take this whole situation in a different life. I take it from the point of view of the woman. Being forced to continue a pregnancy can ruin a woman's life, if not kill her outright. Life is short. When you take away a woman's choice, you take away her options. You take away her ability to live her short life to the fullest. Some pro-lifer's say that it's only 9 months, but I'm here to tell you it isn't. Having a child changes everything. Even if the woman forks the child over to an adoption agency, her life is forever altered. My aunt gave a child up for adoption. She spent years and years worrying about him, wondering what happened to him. Was he healthy? Was he happy? Was his family good to him? She knew nothing. Not even if he was dead or alive. The whole thing was incredibly hard on her. Several years ago, my aunt was contacted by the boy's adoptive family. He was dead. For a while she didn't even know how he had died. Eventually, she found out he had died in a car accident.

Now, I'm not saying she regrets giving birth. I'm not saying she wishes she'd had an abortion. I have no idea where she stands on those particular issues. I'm just saying the whole thing isn't as easy as some pro-lifer's want to make it out to be. Life is short. Giving birth will take up a part of your life for the rest of your life. I don't think you should force a woman to give up her life that way. Especially considering I don't believe and early stage fetus and under to be a person yet.
TPauSilver
My Conscience
Lets say you used to be a binge drinker. Your whole family goes out to dinner while you stay at home. They all die because a drunk driver hit their car. Wouldn't this make you stop binge drinking? Also, I saw my fathers last few breaths. It happened a couple months ago. When you see someone that fought so hard to live, he overcame countless things that the doctors still are bewildered about. Then he is gone. You see how someone can be with you one minute and gone the next. Life is to short. I knew plenty of things my father wanted to do but was unable to because he passed away. Since life is so short I believe everyones life is important and no ones life is more important than anothers.
Isn't the point though that your father didn't get to do what he wanted to do? Of course, it would still be sad if he'd died content having achieved everything he wanted and I'm sorry to hear that he's died, but isn't the point that he didn't live the life that he wanted to? Think about the woman, for a second. For the sake of a fetus who can neither think nor feel, who can have no dreams and no desires, who doesn't have the capacity to be unforfiled, you want the woman to give up her hopes and dreams and desires and be mother? A life is a terrible thing to waste, dont get me wrong, having a kid isn't a waste if you want it, but having to put all your hopes and dreams asside because you got up the duff, for all the way we have to go I thought feminism had come further then that.

No one says the women who gives birth has to be a mother gonk She could very well give the child up for adoption. I am really sad my father passed. There was a lot of stuff in life he still wanted to do. I know a lot of women here will get mad at me for saying this. But, I know people enjoy having sex. Sex is an extremely mature action. Shouldn't you be ready for a child if you are ready for sex. I know some will disagree. No one bite me for saying this gonk I maybe wrong sweatdrop sweatdrop
My Conscience
Crystallyne Vixen
My Conscience
Another thing I don't understand how the law lets this happen is - how can a minor be allowed to get an abortion without parent approval? This is really disgusts me. A minor can't go to their normal doctor without parent permission, they can't take advil without parent permission (most parents wouldn't take there child to court for that. People do that all the time), they can't really take any medications without parent permission, they can't get a permit without parent permission, and I could go on, yet, they can get an abortion without parent permission. What kind of B.S. is that?
Minors can go to the doctor without parent permission. There's this thing called the HIPPA privacy practice now, and anything between patient and doctor need not be communicated to the parents.


Here is the evidence I needed: http://www.nyclu.org/thi/quiz/quiz_full_version.htm

Minors have to have parent permission to visit the doctors. Since this is true, I don't understand why minors are allowed to get an abortion without parent permission. Minors need parent permission to visit the doctors, take any medication including Advil, and even more. Yet they don't have to to have an abortion.
Because, um, maybe abortion is a bit of a sensitive subject? In an ideal world a child can turn to her mother and tell her she's pregnant and her mum will be open and excepting as will her father and she can make a choice herself with the benedit of their experience and education if she requests it. In the real world girls are thrown out of their houses for a lot less then getting pregnant. Not only that but we have to protect the rights of girls who's parents might be abusing them. I'm sure an abused child is going to want to turn around and say "Daddy, I'm having a baby and I think it's yours". It's all well and good to give it "OMFG SHE SHUD HAV GON 2 TEH PLOIZ" but it isn't going to happen, realistically. A lot of the people who are abused don't tell people, they see it as their fault.
So, what you're actually doing is taking a group of vulnerable girls, those who risk loosing the parental home or those being abused and denying them the way they've chosen out of the situation. And what are these girls going to do? A lot of them are either going to be teen abortion statistics and become the bottom class women with too many kids who can't get jobs or even care for their kids right or they're going to go and get back street abortions.

Way to persecute vulnerable young girls! Go you!
My Conscience
You missed my whole post crying My evidence proves that the born part doesn't pertain to being born inorder to have rights. Read it again ^_^


BORN OR NATURALIZED. Naturalization happens if the person was BORN (look, the word you're arguing against) outside of the country, and achieved the requirements to be a legal citizen.

They still have to be BORN.
My Conscience
Here is the evidence I needed: http://www.nyclu.org/thi/quiz/quiz_full_version.htm

Minors have to have parent permission to visit the doctors. Since this is true, I don't understand why minors are allowed to get an abortion without parent permission. Minors need parent permission to visit the doctors, take any medication including Advil, and even more. Yet they don't have to to have an abortion.

It is my opinion that if a girl is old enough to be a mother, she is old enough to decide whether or not to be one. Would you like it if a girl's parents decided to force her into having an abortion? Because they believed that if she didn't have an abortion her life would be ruined? That's what happens if we allow parents to decide a girl's reproductive options. If they can decide to keep her from abortion, they can decide to force her into one. Not fun, but consistant.
My Conscience
No one says the women who gives birth has to be a mother gonk She could very well give the child up for adoption. I am really sad my father passed. There was a lot of stuff in life he still wanted to do. I know a lot of women here will get mad at me for saying this. But, I know people enjoy having sex. Sex is an extremely mature action. Shouldn't you be ready for a child if you are ready for sex. I know some will disagree. No one bite me for saying this gonk I maybe wrong sweatdrop sweatdrop
You have a baby and you're always a mother. You think women just hand their babies over to adoption and forget about them? To a degree that child is always a part of you and will probably change you, even if you never see it again. Of course, it varies with the woman, but the ones who can just put it on the side would seem to be in the minority.

And maturity =/= wanting a baby.

Just because I'm mature enough to have a baby doesn't mean I want one, I could well be mature enough to admit that I'm not cut out to be a mother, that there's a chance it would kill me and I simply aren't comfortable with the fact that I would no longer have any me-time or privacy. And being mature enough to allow a man to insert a p***s into your v****a is certainly not proof that you're mature enough to have a baby.
My Conscience
No one says the women who gives birth has to be a mother gonk She could very well give the child up for adoption. I am really sad my father passed. There was a lot of stuff in life he still wanted to do. I know a lot of women here will get mad at me for saying this. But, I know people enjoy having sex. Sex is an extremely mature action. Shouldn't you be ready for a child if you are ready for sex. I know some will disagree. No one bite me for saying this gonk I maybe wrong sweatdrop sweatdrop


Adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy. Some women would LOVE to have children, and will adopt if they don't want to, or cant't, be/stay pregnant.

Abortion is the alternative to staying pregnant, by choice of the woman.

Consent to sex =/= consent to keeping the pregnancy and giving birth, then raising the offspring. That's a whole different ballfield, mate. Whole different one.
Sorcerer Kata Samoes
My Conscience
You missed my whole post crying My evidence proves that the born part doesn't pertain to being born inorder to have rights. Read it again ^_^


BORN OR NATURALIZED. Naturalization happens if the person was BORN (look, the word you're arguing against) outside of the country, and achieved the requirements to be a legal citizen.

They still have to be BORN.

God gonk I didn't want to say this all over again xd I'll do it anyway.

Here is the amendment:
Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




I'll take it step by step.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The ,..., is known in grammer as extra information. Such as - Yesterday my Aunt, Susie, went to the market place. Susie is extra information. Lets look at section 1 of the amendment without the extra information.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

This part states that if you were born in the U.S. or were given a card saying you are a citizen, you are a citizen of the U.S. The extra information just states that since you are a citizen you are subject to the law.



Quote:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

This states that if you are a citizen you are protected against unconsititutional laws.



Quote:
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Notice how the term citizen changed from citizen to person. This is the part of the amendment that protects every persons life. Citizen or not. This is the amendment that protects someone from shooting an illegal alien. Even though they are not citizens of the U.S., they are protected because they are on U.S. soil.



Quote:
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This part just says that every person is guaranteed equal protection of the laws with due process.
Nethilia's avatar

Liberal Member

3,450 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Person of Interest 200
My Conscience

Why do you all have to be such asswipes about it and jump on my back.


Get a thicker skin. Pointing out that your personal situations make no sense is not being, as you so elegantly put it, an asswipe.

Quote:
Lets say you used to be a binge drinker. Your whole family goes out to dinner while you stay at home. They all die because a drunk driver hit their car. Wouldn't this make you stop binge drinking?


Let's say you used to ride motorcycles with your dad. Hell, let's say your mom rode up to her 8th month while she was pregnant with you and you once rode in your dad's jacket at the age of 2 weeks. That you loved motorbikes. Then, one day when you're 14 your dad is slammed into by a truck, put in a coma for 3 months, and when he wakes up his brain is ******** and his left arm is dead weight at the side of his body. Wouldn't you hate motorcycles then?

Wait, no. All that happened to me and I DON'T. And I don't expect other people to stop riding bikes because of it. Using the logic you're presenting, I sohuld never want to see another motocycle in my life and yet, I get a thrill and a desire in my heart and fond memories of my childhood everytime I see one roll by.

Quote:
Also, I saw my fathers last few breaths. It happened a couple months ago. When you see someone that fought so hard to live, he overcame countless things that the doctors still are bewildered about. Then he is gone. You see how someone can be with you one minute and gone the next. Life is to short. I knew plenty of things my father wanted to do but was unable to because he passed away. Since life is so short I believe everyones life is important and no ones life is more important than anothers.


I saw my dad struggle to teach, to handle the loss of an entire arm, to suffer and become homeless. I saw the impact of my uncle's death on my entire family. Yet, I'm not trying to tell other people to stop driving or riding bikes. Your life, and the burdens it gave you, are yours to bear, and there is no reason that your heartbreak should be used to control other people's medical decisions. They almost pulled the plug on my dad cause they thought he'd never wake up. And yet I didn't give a s**t when that bint in Florida kicked it.

Yes, your father died. Yes, his life ended. But that is no reason for you you to willingly take away my life in all its parts--my hopes, my dreams, my everything--all for the sake of an embryo or fetus that doesn't even know it exists.
divineseraph


#2, the difference is, one is irresponsible and causes death. the other is irresponsible but gives a child a chance at life. think about it for a few seconds.


And your stance is also one of slavery, degradation, and rape. Think about it for a few seconds.
My Conscience
Sorcerer Kata Samoes
My Conscience
You missed my whole post crying My evidence proves that the born part doesn't pertain to being born inorder to have rights. Read it again ^_^


BORN OR NATURALIZED. Naturalization happens if the person was BORN (look, the word you're arguing against) outside of the country, and achieved the requirements to be a legal citizen.

They still have to be BORN.

God gonk I didn't want to say this all over again xd I'll do it anyway.

Here is the amendment:
Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




I'll take it step by step.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The ,..., is known in grammer as extra information. Such as - Yesterday my Aunt, Susie, went to the market place. Susie is extra information. Lets look at section 1 of the amendment without the extra information.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

This part states that if you were born in the U.S. or were given a card saying you are a citizen, you are a citizen of the U.S. The extra information just states that since you are a citizen you are subject to the law.



Quote:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

This states that if you are a citizen you are protected against unconsititutional laws.



Quote:
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

Notice how the term citizen changed from citizen to person. This is the part of the amendment that protects every persons life. Citizen or not. This is the amendment that protects someone from shooting an illegal alien. Even though they are not citizens of the U.S., they are protected because they are on U.S. soil.



Quote:
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This part just says that every person is guaranteed equal protection of the laws with due process.


I still see nothing there that protects the right of a fetus. I assume the fact that you point out that the term changes from citizen to person means that you think that a fetus is a person. This is very debatable.
Nethilia's avatar

Liberal Member

3,450 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Person of Interest 200
My Conscience


Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

This part states that if you were born in the U.S. or were given a card saying you are a citizen, you are a citizen of the U.S. The extra information just states that since you are a citizen you are subject to the law.


That whole "being born" thing is really flying right over your head, isn't it? Every time you post that, I and those like me point out that whoe part about being born. Is a fetus born?

EDIT: and by the way, illegal immigrants? Born.
I believe what My Conscience is saying is that although fetuses and such are not citizens, they are still people, and as such are protected under the 14th amendment where it says ""nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."" Kind of like you can't kill a Canadian/Mexican/whatever simply because they are not a citizen of the United States.

But I'm not sure the 14th amendment is the reason we can't kill non-US citizens. I've not thought about it before. Anyone care to hazard a guess?
Nethilia
My Conscience


Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

This part states that if you were born in the U.S. or were given a card saying you are a citizen, you are a citizen of the U.S. The extra information just states that since you are a citizen you are subject to the law.


That whole "being born" thing is really flying right over your head, isn't it? Every time you post that, I and those like me point out that whoe part about being born. Is a fetus born?

EDIT: and by the way, illegal immigrants? Born.

Being born has nothing to do with the legal protection gonk Being born only applys to being a U.S. citizen.
I asked my government teacher this and he said I was right sweatdrop

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