Welcome to Gaia! ::

sachiko_sohma
Gris
sachiko_sohma
That doesn't give you the right for partial abortion, that is illegal or should be. You want to abort then I won't stop you but you have up to a certian point until you can't unless there is a serious medical emergnacy. It's not better to abort if your that far along.

As it's illegal, I'm aware I don't have the right to an elective abortion at that stage. But I still support the idea, for any woman.


Here's my own case, if you're interested: I am childfree, and not only do I know I would not be a good parent, but I have no desire to be one, to add to the human population at all, or to give a child to the adoption system or someone else to raise in my stead.

The idea of being pregnant disturbs me.

I am asexual. The idea of having *sex* disturbs me, and if I were to become pregnant there's a fair chance it would have been due to rape. Add those traumas to everything else up there.

Almost *everything* in me would be telling me to abort, and even if I couldn't trust my emotions I am overall a logical person. My reason would win out over compassion for the unborn child - yes, and at that point I could consider it a child.


I don't claim that what I would do would be fair, but it would still be the best choice I think I could make.


To kill it at that point is the best choice? I think not.


However, at this time, it doesn't matter what you think about Gris' hypothetical actions. Abortion legal and your morals don't bind her.

You may not think it is right for her to terminate supposed pregnancy however it is not up to you to decide what is best for her. She'd know best her situation and the best plan of action or route to take.
Nethilia
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk.


Sex is no more solely for making babies than mouths are solely for mashing food into an acceptable form to swallow.

Quote:
The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it.


I risk pregnancy. I don not agree to complete it.

Quote:
YOur being careless and irresponsible.


By who's definition? Certainly not mine, for it would be more irresponsible for me to give birth to an unwanted offspring than to abort.

Quote:
However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort.


There is no child, as stated previously.

Quote:
You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there.


I decided to have sex. I took steps to prevent pregnancy. I do not wish to be pregnant, and I didn't get a popup that asked me if I wanted to concieve. I didn't make myself pregnant anymore than I made my joints start hurting because I decided to walk knowing I have arthritis, or making myself crash a car because I wanted to ride to the store.

Quote:
You just don't get pregnant randomly.


Neitehr do I make myself pregnant, seeing as I have no control over making sperm go into my eggs.

Quote:
Only one person has ever done that.


And 2000+ years later, people are using her child to justify oppressing other people.

Quote:
And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion.


If you're trying to hurt my feelings by calling me a slut--especially mispelling it--you're failing.

Quote:
If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.


Who died and gave you the right to tell me when to have sex?

Quote:
And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you.


Talk to Moniquill about tube tying and how "easy" it is to get it done. As for me? I want children later. Not now. I can't afford them now and neither can my husband. And I'm not about to stop having sex with my husband of almost 6 years because you think my abortion would be immoral in YOUR eyes. I am on birth control, but it can fail, and should it fail me I will consider and probably obtain abortion. AS for the payment of abortion? Well, that's none of your business, unless you're going to put out the kind of money to stop me. That is, you can't since I won't let you buy the use of my body.

Quote:
Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.


Bad, bad comparison. No biscuit.

The payment is my business if it comes out of my tax dollars. I dont want to pay for your foolish actions. And weather is wrong in my eyes doesnt matter, because its wrong in Gods eyes. And the bible speaks out againts abortion.
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?

That "feeling like junk" is completely imagined. If you want to think of it in terms of murdering a baby, you can do that, but not everybody thinks like you(!). That said, fertilization does not occur immediately (I don't recall exactly how long it takes, but isn't it some time between 24 and 48 hours?), and you would not be "killing" a zygote in the first place. If you're against abortion then why don't you advocate something like this as a contraceptive? I find that highly hypocritical.


Also, you over looked where i still claim that you are sTIll a murderer.

From a pro-life perspective. In your eyes I suppose I'd have shot a 5-year-old in the head and it'd have been no different, were I a fertile female, of course? I see quite a difference.
Articlion
DarkFire168
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


No, because that's a biased POS by a biased POS group put up on their biased POS website. Get an impartial source if you want to try and "prove" something.


If you look further down, they show you all their sources. ITs not Bias. Your bias, you are neglecting facts. You are acting very much like a child. Im giving you the information, and your throwing it in my face. You discredit it, because it proves that your wrong.


No, I discredit it because IT along with ALL IT'S sources come from biased people. If you had thrown out a Religious tolerance link it wouldn't be biased. But Jericholife, abortionfacts.com and nrl are all incredibly biased.
Mistress DragonFlame
Articlion
Okay with that being said, is it okay to abort a child at 8 months?


When have I EVER said I support late-term abortions?

Quote:
They have all the right equipment to live. But still they chop them up into pieces.


The only way EVER to have a 'partial birth' abortion is if the mother will DIE if it is not done, or the fetus has died already in there.

Quote:
IT HAS A NERVOUS SYSTEM at thie point and feels the pain.


So? Read my first statment.

Quote:
So even then, if you didnt agree with fetus, your now still killing a HUMAN that you had just described to me what you would consider a person is.


If I didn't agree, then this post is pointless. domokun


Dont for a minute think that im just speaking out to you. This is an open topic, for everyone to read and figure out for themselves.
Nethilia's avatar

Liberal Member

3,450 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Person of Interest 200
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


No more than Fred Phelps's site changes my assertion that there's nothign wrong with gay people. Could you try something a little less BIASED AS ********?
Moniquill's avatar

7,150 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Mark Twain 100
  • Megathread 100
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


Nope.
Nor does it have a damned thing to do with the quote you appear to be responding to. I still say the fetus is a human and is a nonperson. The ickiness of the procedure, the killing of the fetus, and any pain it might experience in the process is pretty much irrelevant.
Articlion

The payment is my business if it comes out of my tax dollars. I dont want to pay for your foolish actions. And weather is wrong in my eyes doesnt matter, because its wrong in Gods eyes. And the bible speaks out againts abortion.


Seeing as how it never comes out of your taxdollars, that means that you have no reason to worry. And the only passage in the Bible that speaks about abortion is in relation to how much a man must pay another man back if he accidently striks the second mans wife and she miscarries and she didn't want to miscarry. Besides, not everyone believes in God, so don't use that to hide behind.
Benighted
Respond to the rest of my post -- don't ignore it.
Mistress DragonFlame's avatar

Wealthy Werewolf

8,350 Points
  • Brandisher 100
  • Risky Lifestyle 100
  • Full closet 200
Articlion
The payment is my business if it comes out of my tax dollars.


Actually, I would like to know what insurance company takes out of taxes. I'm pretty sure it's normally a User-pay, user-get thing. And, what company pays for abortions? I need to join them...

Quote:
I dont want to pay for your foolish actions.


And I don't want to pay for more military baces. Vote against it or move away, that's your choices (legally speaking).

Quote:
And weather is wrong in my eyes doesnt matter, because its wrong in Gods eyes. And the bible speaks out againts abortion.


Really? Where? What passage spasifically? Seriously, if I'm going to be subjected to a belive system I don't even follow, I'd at least like to know the direct 'law' against it.
Genyusai's avatar

Ruthless Bloodsucker

11,100 Points
  • Battle: Knight 100
  • Friendly 100
  • Somebody Likes You 100
Always pro-choice, all the way. Although my clergy has specificly labled abortion an abhorrable sin against God, I feel all women should have the power to end an unwanted pregnancy at any time, even long past post partum eek


Unfortnately for some reason that's called murder.
Moniquill's avatar

7,150 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Mark Twain 100
  • Megathread 100
Articlion

Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


Only barrier methods prevent the sperm from ever meeting the egg, and those are the least relaible contraceptive devices available. All hormonal methods of birth control focus on preventing implantation and thus pregnancy, not upon preventing conception itself.

Also, do not confuse MAY with WILL. An oocyte MAY because a complete adult human someday. It might also become the product of mensturation. Or a miscarriage. Or a hideously deformed stillborn. Or an infant that dies in infancy or childhood.
sachiko_sohma
Gris
Think what you like. I live my life according to the dictates of my conscience, not yours.

You don't have one if you kill at that point.

I do have one, and I had thought I'd made it clear I'd be acting in accordance with it. That it doesn't mesh with yours doesn't make it nonexistant.

My conscience will not allow me to reproduce, *especially* if I'm not going to care for the child. Late-term abortion - infanticide - is preferable.

My conscience is not a kind thing. It's not meant to be. But it's what would be *driving* me, well beyond my emotional reaction.


Treacherous Desire
However, at this time, it doesn't matter what you think about Gris' hypothetical actions. Abortion legal and your morals don't bind her.

You may not think it is right for her to terminate supposed pregnancy however it is not up to you to decide what is best for her. She'd know best her situation and the best plan of action or route to take.

Thank you; that's well-put. I didn't think to put that in.
sachiko_sohma
Gris
sachiko_sohma
To kill it at that point is the best choice? I think not.

Think what you like. I live my life according to the dictates of my conscience, not yours.


You don't have one if you kill at that point.


Of course she stil has a consious.

Since WHEN did not sharing YOUR morals and ideals and making choices and decisions based on her own code of conduct suddenly equal to cold-blooded morally disgusting killer.

To bring the subject round to one of my other reasons I believe abortion should be legal. Africa.

Yes lovely Africa. There is somewhat of necessity to keep a family small in Africa to ensure survival. With the current sex educators saying 'All Protection is Bad', an unavailabilty of contraception and a lack of rights of women in Africa abortion is sometimes the only way they can maintain a small family size. Smaller families' children typically end up more well-nourished and educated having a better chance at surviving. Also, in cases of war, they are more portable.

In early South America, after the western civilization began colonizing 'wild' tribes starting practicing infanticide. Families were to have only two children. And more were considered a burden upon the tribe who could have to leave their village in the middle of the night to avoid those wishing to take them slaves. Additional children slowed up the families and were, hence, killed.
For the first post...

One stance which also appears quite often is that a woman who chooses to have sex and becomes pregnant from the sex "needs to face the consequences of her actions". Others may word it in a different way, such as "she knew what was coming to her" or "she should have kept her legs closed". This stance is refered to by a few pro-choicers as "pro-punishment" or "punishment camper" because it implies that going through the pregnancy and labor should be a "punishment" for having consented to sex. It is most often considered to be a seperate stance from "pro-life", or to not truly be "pro-life".

A few people will comment that until one is ready for a child, they are not ready for sex. One flaw with saying this is that some people exist (they label themselves "childfree" wink who do not wish to have children at all in their life. It is not realistic to try and tell a childfree individual who is in either a long-term relationship or a marriage to abstain from sex completely because it could lead to pregnancy.

Another point often brought up with this stance is the misconception that all or most women who obtain abortions did not use proper protection. This arguement does not work because, according to sources such as this one, 54% of women obtaining abortions were using some kind of contraception or birth control at the time they became pregnant, and that 90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies use contraception.
Let's be hypothetical. Let's say a woman does not use any form of birth control or contracpetives at the time she is to become pregnant, and will use abortion as her primary form of birth control (instead of simply "back-up plan" wink . Condoms can easily be obtained from the pharmacy, and from many corner stores, and can come as inexpensive as $2, depending on the kind and brand you buy. Some schools, medical centres, and community centres even give them away for free. Birth control pills are also not expensive in comparison to abortion. Abortion can cost anywhere from $200 to $1500 or more. I'm sorry to be harsh, but such a woman is stupid. Would you really trust her with going through a pregnancy and possibly choosing parenthood? Come, now.

Turning a pregnancy into a punishment also devalues the offspring's life. Think for a second without making a sudden jump. The pro-life stance is mostly based on the idea of the offspring being a valuable human. To simply turn pregnancy, labor, and possibly parenting into a means of punishment brings down its value. It is going from what could be a precious gift to what is merely a means of making the woman regret having had sex. I wouldn't have wanted to be a punishment. That's for sure.

"Responsibility", in this issue, is not something that can be defined by one person for everyone else. "Responsibility" is merely taking the actions which one feels is most fit in a situation with several factors considered. Abortion is a way some women who are faced with unplanned pregnancies choose to take responsibility.

Everything we do in life involves a risk. When we get into our car and drive to work with our seatbelt on, we're taking a risk and taking proper precautions. When we cross the street, and look both ways and watch the lights, we're taking a risk and taking proper precautions. When a woman has sex and uses protection, she is taking a risk and taking proper precautions. Despite taking precautions, all situations do still involve risk. However, a person who is severely injured while crossing the street or driving their car is not denied medical treatment, despite the fact that they knew a risk was involved. With this in mind, why should a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be get denied the medical treatment she is seeking? She, too, knew the risks.

A woman who has sex agrees to the risk of becoming pregnant - not necessarily to remaining pregnant.

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games