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Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.

Not all people who have sex are irresponsible. Not all people who have sex are promiscuous. And, believe it or not, not all people who have sex are unmarried. That said, why should a married couple be willing to have a child if they are willing to have sex?


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?

That "feeling like junk" is completely imagined. If you want to think of it in terms of murdering a baby, you can do that, but not everybody thinks like you(!). That said, fertilization does not occur immediately (I don't recall exactly how long it takes, but isn't it some time between 24 and 48 hours?), and you would not be "killing" a zygote in the first place. If you're against abortion then why don't you advocate something like this as a contraceptive? I find that highly hypocritical.
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


No, because that's a biased POS by a biased POS group put up on their biased POS website. Get an impartial source if you want to try and "prove" something.
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Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


Oh, oh, oh! I saw that image before in an anti-choicer's sig! They had altered it so the eyes got all buggy. xd I laughed so hard.
Benighted
Articlion
Benighted
Not all people who have sex are irresponsible. Not all people who have sex are promiscuous. And, believe it or not, not all people who have sex are unmarried. That said, why should a married couple be willing to have a child if they are willing to have sex?


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)

You are assuming that contraceptives will always be used properly and never fail to work as intended. They can, do, and will fail occasionally. If the woman happens to be ovulating then she very well could be fertilized. Is that the fault of the "parents"? Is it anyone's fault?


Again, if you cant accept the responsibilites of the risks your taking, don't do it. Your gambling with life. You can always just not do it. And if it bothers you that much and you must have sexual interactions, keep to oral. And you know as well as i do, that not everybody that has sex, uses these methods. The cervix wall is very effeciant, so is the shot, followed by a condom. It would be close to impossible to mess up with all three combined. If your that worried about getting knocked up, then be responsible and take the nessacary percautions.
DarkFire168
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


No, because that's a biased POS by a biased POS group put up on their biased POS website. Get an impartial source if you want to try and "prove" something.

I also doubt Moniquill is going to spontaneously change her opinion on something related to this. <_<
Benighted
Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.

Not all people who have sex are irresponsible. Not all people who have sex are promiscuous. And, believe it or not, not all people who have sex are unmarried. That said, why should a married couple be willing to have a child if they are willing to have sex?


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?

That "feeling like junk" is completely imagined. If you want to think of it in terms of murdering a baby, you can do that, but not everybody thinks like you(!). That said, fertilization does not occur immediately (I don't recall exactly how long it takes, but isn't it some time between 24 and 48 hours?), and you would not be "killing" a zygote in the first place. If you're against abortion then why don't you advocate something like this as a contraceptive? I find that highly hypocritical.


Ya coming from a guy, I totally see where your coming from, where you know from first experiance.
Benighted
Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.

Not all people who have sex are irresponsible. Not all people who have sex are promiscuous. And, believe it or not, not all people who have sex are unmarried. That said, why should a married couple be willing to have a child if they are willing to have sex?


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?

That "feeling like junk" is completely imagined. If you want to think of it in terms of murdering a baby, you can do that, but not everybody thinks like you(!). That said, fertilization does not occur immediately (I don't recall exactly how long it takes, but isn't it some time between 24 and 48 hours?), and you would not be "killing" a zygote in the first place. If you're against abortion then why don't you advocate something like this as a contraceptive? I find that highly hypocritical.


Also, you over looked where i still claim that you are sTIll a murderer.
sachiko_sohma
Gris
sachiko_sohma
To kill it at that point is the best choice? I think not.

Think what you like. I live my life according to the dictates of my conscience, not yours.


You don't have one if you kill at that point.


And you're one to judge the conscience of another? Hm... go figure.
Nethilia's avatar

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Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk.


Sex is no more solely for making babies than mouths are solely for mashing food into an acceptable form to swallow.

Quote:
The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it.


I risk pregnancy. I don not agree to complete it.

Quote:
YOur being careless and irresponsible.


By who's definition? Certainly not mine, for it would be more irresponsible for me to give birth to an unwanted offspring than to abort.

Quote:
However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort.


There is no child, as stated previously.

Quote:
You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there.


I decided to have sex. I took steps to prevent pregnancy. I do not wish to be pregnant, and I didn't get a popup that asked me if I wanted to concieve. I didn't make myself pregnant anymore than I made my joints start hurting because I decided to walk knowing I have arthritis, or making myself crash a car because I wanted to ride to the store.

Quote:
You just don't get pregnant randomly.


Neitehr do I make myself pregnant, seeing as I have no control over making sperm go into my eggs.

Quote:
Only one person has ever done that.


And 2000+ years later, people are using her child to justify oppressing other people.

Quote:
And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion.


If you're trying to hurt my feelings by calling me a slut--especially mispelling it--you're failing.

Quote:
If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.


Who died and gave you the right to tell me when to have sex?

Quote:
And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you.


Talk to Moniquill about tube tying and how "easy" it is to get it done. As for me? I want children later. Not now. I can't afford them now and neither can my husband. And I'm not about to stop having sex with my husband of almost 6 years because you think my abortion would be immoral in YOUR eyes. I am on birth control, but it can fail, and should it fail me I will consider and probably obtain abortion. AS for the payment of abortion? Well, that's none of your business, unless you're going to put out the kind of money to stop me. That is, you can't since I won't let you buy the use of my body.

Quote:
Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.


Bad, bad comparison. No biscuit.
DarkFire168
Articlion
Moniquill
Articlion
And to say it isnt human, just because of a 2 second time frame, well thats just BS.



Please point out where anyone in this thread has made such an assertion.
At no point is any product of pregnancy nonhuman. What we are arguing is the philosophical concept of personhood.


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/

Right there it is honey. Read it and weep. Does this change your view?


No, because that's a biased POS by a biased POS group put up on their biased POS website. Get an impartial source if you want to try and "prove" something.


If you look further down, they show you all their sources. ITs not Bias. Your bias, you are neglecting facts. You are acting very much like a child. Im giving you the information, and your throwing it in my face. You discredit it, because it proves that your wrong.
Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk. The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible. However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort. You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there. You just don't get pregnant randomly. Only one person has ever done that. And I more then positive a smut like you isn't going to chosen on such an occasion. If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.

And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied. Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive. Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance. Which more or less makes you a mooch. Just like that baby thats "Leaching" off of you. Well your leaching off of America, your a dirty hypocrite.

Not all people who have sex are irresponsible. Not all people who have sex are promiscuous. And, believe it or not, not all people who have sex are unmarried. That said, why should a married couple be willing to have a child if they are willing to have sex?


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?


It ends it before it attacts to the uterus, so it's ends it before it really starts, that's what it's for. People do, I disagree with abortions but I also know protection and birth control can fail, not always and most due to human error, like not putting the condom on properly, putting certain lubercants on it. Birth control can mess up if you take some medication, should ask a doctor what an effect it. Not everything is 100%. It's rare and unlikly but you can even get pregnant even if you have your tubestied. Doctors can mess things up at times as well.
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Articlion
Okay with that being said, is it okay to abort a child at 8 months?


When have I EVER said I support late-term abortions?

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They have all the right equipment to live. But still they chop them up into pieces.


The only way EVER to have a 'partial birth' abortion is if the mother will DIE if it is not done, or the fetus has died already in there.

Quote:
IT HAS A NERVOUS SYSTEM at thie point and feels the pain.


So? Read my first statment.

Quote:
So even then, if you didnt agree with fetus, your now still killing a HUMAN that you had just described to me what you would consider a person is.


If I didn't agree, then this post is pointless. domokun
Articlion
Benighted
Articlion
sachiko_sohma
Articlion


Because there are contraceptives that will do the work for you. So you dont have to murder a child, instead, the sperm will never meet the egg, thus making a complete set of DNA which will eventually become an Adult granted life is in its favor. (please dont manipulate this, because we all know death can happen to anyone. No what ifs)


There is also the morning after pill they can take if their so worried about anything failing or the condom braking.


Thats a lot more costly and makes you feel horrible. So fine, you want to take the mourning after pill everytime you have sex. I surely dont promote it. Because if there is a connection between sperm and egg, not only do you feel like junk. You are still a murder, that feels like junk. Why cant people just do the responsible thing and get contraceptives. Like the cervix wall?

That "feeling like junk" is completely imagined. If you want to think of it in terms of murdering a baby, you can do that, but not everybody thinks like you(!). That said, fertilization does not occur immediately (I don't recall exactly how long it takes, but isn't it some time between 24 and 48 hours?), and you would not be "killing" a zygote in the first place. If you're against abortion then why don't you advocate something like this as a contraceptive? I find that highly hypocritical.


Ya coming from a guy, I totally see where your coming from, where you know from first experiance.

Respond to the rest of my post; don't ignore it.

No, it has nothing to do with my gender. It's purely psychological, especially given that the sperm and egg have not even united yet (assuming the woman is ovulating in the first place, something you can't know for sure, further proof that the guilt is purely conscious).
Moniquill's avatar

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Articlion
If you dont want children, dont have sex and put others lives at risk.


Sex isn’t just for reproduction. People do not have sex because they want babies, they have sex because sex fosters pair bonds. Sex, among humans (And most other intelligent species for that matter) is first and foremost a social interaction. Without sex, one’s adult life will be stunted in a serious way. Lack of sex, or even lack of sexual desire, is considered a psychological disorder and can lead to other much nastier complications. Also, if sex is just for reproduction, why do humans still exhibit sexual desire in cases where no conception could possibly take place? Why don’t we mate like, say, dogs, wherein females go into estrus and mate only during that time? If sex is only for reproduction, it has an AMAZING failure rate.

species that have sex like crazy even when there's little to no chance of breeding:

European kestrels
red-sided garter snakes
alpine accentors
razorbills
American Southwest or Hawaiian whiptail lizards (these reproduce asexually, but have very active sex lives anyway)
cichlids
purple swamp hens/pukikos
Eurasian oystercatchers
several species of gulls
tree swallows
orange-fronted parakeets
sheep
dolphins
deer
gazelles
Japanese macaques
bonobos
lemurs

(source: Diversity's rainbow: diversity, gender, and sexuality in nature and people, Joan Roughgarden (2004).)


Articlion
The moment you open your legs, you know what risks your taking, and what can come of it. YOur being careless and irresponsible.


No, I'd be careless and irresponsible if I did so without taking reasonable precautions to avoid pregnancy in respect to my level of availability and knowledge.

Articlion
However, you are responsible for the death of that child you abort.


No, I'll be responsible for the nonexistence of a child and the death of a fetus. I'm fine with that, really.

Articlion
You say "living in your womb against your wil"l? Well you decided to have sex right? So techiniqually, you put it there.


Consenting to sex =/= consenting to pregnancy.
Consenting to the possibility of becoming pregnant =/= consent to remain that way until gestation is complete.

Articlion
If you arent SANE enough to raise a child, then you shouldnt have sex.


Mmmmm, personal judgement!
No. If you're not sane enough to raise a child, and you're fully aware of it, you shouldn't HAVE A CHILD.

Sex =/= children.

Articlion
And if you want sex that bad, and not the child that can come out of it, get your tubes tied.


I've tried.
I've petitioned for tubal ligation three times in two states, offering to pay out of pocket because inurance doesn't cover such a thing. I've been turned away three times because I am a nulliparous woman under the age of 35. It's easier said than done.

Articlion
Or stop being cheap and get a working contreceptive.


You assume that;
A: the only reason someone would opt for inexpensive contraceptives is 'cheapness' and not ignorance or poverty

B: Higher cost = better protection.

Neither of these assumptions are true.

Articlion
Because I more then positive, it cost money to get an abortion, weather it be yours, or the taxes and medical insurance.


If these people really are getting abortion after abortion, choosing an expensive, painful, risky, invasive, and socially charged surgical procedure instead of any other form of birth control… do you really want them adding to the gene pool? Nobody who’d actively choose a 700 dollar abortion with risks of septicemia, uterine scarring, etc, etc over a 5 dollar pack of condoms should be trusted with the responsibility of maintaining a healthy pregnancy, much less the care of another human being.

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