The 2nd Amendment and the 13th

[Aporeia]

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

Let's talk about first shot. Kent state massacre.

Now what if said first shot comes from the crowd but is an agent working to get gun control.

You're going to have to remove your tin hat, sir.

Quote:

Now let's take you out of the equation and focus on only guns and not slitting throats with a knife. When would you be willing to pick up a gun and defend others. Let's say worse case scenario where you'd want something to get the job done. My point is you do have that line that once crossed you will want a weapon powerful enough to defeat your foes, or at least level the playing field just a little to your advantage.

There is no civilian weapon that can contend with our military if they're coming to kill you (for some irrational reason?)

Excuse me, if that kind of thing were to happen, and I'm using the word IF very strongly, fighting is not the answer. Not being there is the answer.

You're not familiar with cointelpro are you? Black ops? You can't deny these operations designed to get a job done. You claim a government is incapable of attacking it's own populace and blaming it on others to get an agenda done is "Inconceivable!!!" (Quote from the Princess Bride. I hope you read it in Wallace Shawn's voice!).

I don't have anything to fear from cointelpro.

Quote:

I didn't say "Our" military now did I. So before you pick up a gun and fight for anyone or yourself, you'd rather die? "Fighting is not the answer" Then why did you suggest slitting throats.

Because they're already there? Obviously the best answer isn't the answer where I attempt to kill them all to get free. The best answer is that If I feel threatened, I leave before a confrontation ever happens. If this country were ever to do the kinds of irrational bullcrap you people fear, I'd leave.

Quote:

You have to have a case in your mind in which you'd want to have firepower. Right?

Not a military takeover. Dudes have body armor, what's my civilian firearm going to do against a trained group of people who'd shoot me before I could land a lucky shot somewhere they aren't protected?

Guns are great until you're talking about a group of well trained, armored men who are all probably a better shot than you.

What do you mean you people? lol And you're rich enough to just bail out on the country if said "Bullcrap" people fear starts happening? Do you think you'd be welcome as a refugee in these places or are you going to bug out to the wild? What if your immigration is stopped and you're forced to stay in the states as said bullcrap starts happening. What if our neighbors to the north and south lock down on our borders faster then a lock down in a prison that riots.

Anywhere is better than where I was, in that situation. If I can't leave the country, then yes, I will hide out in the wild. What part of "If I'm going to die" are you not getting? Do not confront certain death, or death will come, certainly.

Quote:

You need to stop avoiding the question. What is the case in your mind you'd want firepower. You know you have one.

When it isn't stupid to have it. Is that not an appropriate answer? I don't have a problem with owning a firearm. I don't currently, but I probably will eventually. Why are you making this sound like I'm against it?

Yea, there are cases I'd like to have a gun. Options are cool. I like options.

Now can we please get out of fantasy land? The government isn't coming to kill us all. They won't in our lifetimes, I can guarantee that.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

The20

I think the 13th is superfluous.
The Declaration of Independence says:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
If all men are equal and if liberty is a unalienable right why was slavery tolerated after 1776?

So the union wouldn't dissolve. Also the deceleration of Independence =/= constitution.

Woman couldn't vote until a while ago, your average person wasn't even expected to vote until the 1820's etc. As things change and progress so do we as a society, hence the amendments.


Since it's addition slavery is now illegal.

We modify the constitution as the years go by to address various issues. xp


No piece of parchment from conception will be perfect.

Hence forth while the first 10 amendments, intended to be added to over time, were to be added.

[Azkeel]

The20

I think the 13th is superfluous.
The Declaration of Independence says:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
If all men are equal and if liberty is a unalienable right why was slavery tolerated after 1776?

Damn right! It shouldn't have been!

[Suicidesoldier#1]

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

You're going to have to remove your tin hat, sir.

There is no civilian weapon that can contend with our military if they're coming to kill you (for some irrational reason?)

Excuse me, if that kind of thing were to happen, and I'm using the word IF very strongly, fighting is not the answer. Not being there is the answer.

You're not familiar with cointelpro are you? Black ops? You can't deny these operations designed to get a job done. You claim a government is incapable of attacking it's own populace and blaming it on others to get an agenda done is "Inconceivable!!!" (Quote from the Princess Bride. I hope you read it in Wallace Shawn's voice!).

I don't have anything to fear from cointelpro.

Quote:

I didn't say "Our" military now did I. So before you pick up a gun and fight for anyone or yourself, you'd rather die? "Fighting is not the answer" Then why did you suggest slitting throats.

Because they're already there? Obviously the best answer isn't the answer where I attempt to kill them all to get free. The best answer is that If I feel threatened, I leave before a confrontation ever happens. If this country were ever to do the kinds of irrational bullcrap you people fear, I'd leave.

Quote:

You have to have a case in your mind in which you'd want to have firepower. Right?

Not a military takeover. Dudes have body armor, what's my civilian firearm going to do against a trained group of people who'd shoot me before I could land a lucky shot somewhere they aren't protected?

Guns are great until you're talking about a group of well trained, armored men who are all probably a better shot than you.

What do you mean you people? lol And you're rich enough to just bail out on the country if said "Bullcrap" people fear starts happening? Do you think you'd be welcome as a refugee in these places or are you going to bug out to the wild? What if your immigration is stopped and you're forced to stay in the states as said bullcrap starts happening. What if our neighbors to the north and south lock down on our borders faster then a lock down in a prison that riots.

Anywhere is better than where I was, in that situation. If I can't leave the country, then yes, I will hide out in the wild. What part of "If I'm going to die" are you not getting? Do not confront certain death, or death will come, certainly.

Quote:

You need to stop avoiding the question. What is the case in your mind you'd want firepower. You know you have one.

When it isn't stupid to have it. Is that not an appropriate answer? I don't have a problem with owning a firearm. I don't currently, but I probably will eventually. Why are you making this sound like I'm against it?

Yea, there are cases I'd like to have a gun. Options are cool. I like options.

Now can we please get out of fantasy land? The government isn't coming to kill us all. They won't in our lifetimes, I can guarantee that.

But what's to stop a bunch of Red Neck, KKK, Anonymous, 4-Chan, or drug cartel assholes from doing it? People who think they're the new government?

Or just some random criminal?

[Aporeia]

Suicidesoldier#1

But what's to stop a bunch of Red Neck, KKK, Anonymous, 4-Chan, or drug cartel assholes from doing it? People who think they're the new government?

Or just some random criminal?

The military. /thread.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

False Dichotomy

Suicidesoldier#1

But what's to stop a bunch of Red Neck, KKK, Anonymous, 4-Chan, or drug cartel assholes from doing it? People who think they're the new government?

Or just some random criminal?

The military. /thread.

Right, so there's a military person, in your home, right now, defending you?

Do you know how often the military is called for riots that have even 10's of thousands of people?



Very rarely.

And even the police have a hard time containing them; by the time the military does arrive, how many people could have been killed or attacked?


If 40,000 people were marching down the street killing random people it would take a long time before the U.S. did anything about it.

[Azkeel]

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

YahuShalum

False Dichotomy

You're going to have to remove your tin hat, sir.

There is no civilian weapon that can contend with our military if they're coming to kill you (for some irrational reason?)

Excuse me, if that kind of thing were to happen, and I'm using the word IF very strongly, fighting is not the answer. Not being there is the answer.

You're not familiar with cointelpro are you? Black ops? You can't deny these operations designed to get a job done. You claim a government is incapable of attacking it's own populace and blaming it on others to get an agenda done is "Inconceivable!!!" (Quote from the Princess Bride. I hope you read it in Wallace Shawn's voice!).

I don't have anything to fear from cointelpro.

Quote:

I didn't say "Our" military now did I. So before you pick up a gun and fight for anyone or yourself, you'd rather die? "Fighting is not the answer" Then why did you suggest slitting throats.

Because they're already there? Obviously the best answer isn't the answer where I attempt to kill them all to get free. The best answer is that If I feel threatened, I leave before a confrontation ever happens. If this country were ever to do the kinds of irrational bullcrap you people fear, I'd leave.

Quote:

You have to have a case in your mind in which you'd want to have firepower. Right?

Not a military takeover. Dudes have body armor, what's my civilian firearm going to do against a trained group of people who'd shoot me before I could land a lucky shot somewhere they aren't protected?

Guns are great until you're talking about a group of well trained, armored men who are all probably a better shot than you.

What do you mean you people? lol And you're rich enough to just bail out on the country if said "Bullcrap" people fear starts happening? Do you think you'd be welcome as a refugee in these places or are you going to bug out to the wild? What if your immigration is stopped and you're forced to stay in the states as said bullcrap starts happening. What if our neighbors to the north and south lock down on our borders faster then a lock down in a prison that riots.

Anywhere is better than where I was, in that situation. If I can't leave the country, then yes, I will hide out in the wild. What part of "If I'm going to die" are you not getting? Do not confront certain death, or death will come, certainly.

Quote:

You need to stop avoiding the question. What is the case in your mind you'd want firepower. You know you have one.

When it isn't stupid to have it. Is that not an appropriate answer? I don't have a problem with owning a firearm. I don't currently, but I probably will eventually. Why are you making this sound like I'm against it?

Yea, there are cases I'd like to have a gun. Options are cool. I like options.

Now can we please get out of fantasy land? The government isn't coming to kill us all. They won't in our lifetimes, I can guarantee that.

Your last part seems to be normalcy bias. "It will never happen to us". That's a dangerous apathetic mind frame perfect for exactly a government to come kill us.

But yeah I'm personally more of a bug out person as well. And I'm seeing writings on the wall that it's pretty much damn time to bug out and get out of America... And if I can't I will bail to the American wilds. (Luckily I have training as well as people I'd be with.) Violence is my last option and if I need to bug out to the wild I'm bringing my guns. I'd rather have a last stand than be fooled into my death. There will be phases it's not just time to bug out! I'm attempting to leave country asap. That doesn't work; I have contingency plans set up that just aren't one after another it all depends on the situation.

[Azkeel]

False Dichotomy

Suicidesoldier#1

But what's to stop a bunch of Red Neck, KKK, Anonymous, 4-Chan, or drug cartel assholes from doing it? People who think they're the new government?

Or just some random criminal?

The military. /thread.

Do you know how much of our military is over seas right now unable to defend our homeland? We're way too spread out...

[Aporeia]

My head is hurting from all of this idiocy. I'm leaving, you people aren't discussing, you're masturbating.

[Keltoi Samurai]

The New Wineskin

Jacque De Molay

I'm really not sure how to approach the deconstruction of his claims.

It is incredibly easy. The second amendment has very loose language that allows for differing interpretations, while the thirteen is quite blatant and explicit about what it means. Furthermore, the second amendment uses terms like "militia" that can be interpretated differently (such as, the American people should be said armed militia, or only the actual military, etc.).

and yet, it's not the militia who is given the right to keep and bear arms, now is it?

it's the right of the people to keep and to bear arms, as can be found in the words of the founders, themselves

Thomas Jefferson

No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

still, though, the founding fathers did elaborate on who the militia was, if you want to continue down your current, demonstrably wrong train of thought:

George Mason

I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials.

Patrick Henry

The great object is that every man be armed

so, the militia is everyone but the politicians, and no free man is to be disarmed.

must I next define "Free Man" to you? or are you satisfied that they meant "the people" when they said "the people?"

[Keltoi Samurai]

False Dichotomy

Kaltros

False Dichotomy

The New Wineskin

False Dichotomy

It's called a red herring, and it's generally not wise to chase it. You're better off with palming your face, and quietly walking away while shaking your head.

How is it a red herring? He is saying that, if we can blatantly ignore the second amendment, what is to stop us from blatantly ignoring other amendments (i.e., the 13th)? I'm not seeing a red herring here. It's a stupid argument, sure, but it's not a red herring.

It's a red herring because he's talking about something completely irrelevant to the original idea.

Gun control being equated to ignoring the 2nd amendment being a stretch, then going off on a tangent and saying we might as well fall off the slippery slope, and ignore the 13th amendment...

The argument kind of detaches at that point.

If gun control doesn't infringe on the right to keep and bear arms, what does it do?

Do you still have the right to bear arms, even with gun control? Yea. So now your rights haven't been infringed upon, they're been modified.

infringe /inˈfrinj/: act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on
his legal rights were being infringed

[Suicidesoldier#1]

False Dichotomy

My head is hurting from all of this idiocy. I'm leaving, you people aren't discussing, you're masturbating.

You tried to tell me how a knife would be better to defend yourself than a rifle against multiple armed opponents with body armor and then tried to tell me that modern knife proof armor, that can't stop rifle rounds but can stop pistols and knives, wouldn't stop knives.

With your magic kung foo powers.


And that is why guns aren't necessary for defense.

Well okay then, apparently we are "masturbating"; I am but that's irrelevant. xp

[Azkeel]

Suicidesoldier#1

False Dichotomy

My head is hurting from all of this idiocy. I'm leaving, you people aren't discussing, you're masturbating.

You tried to tell me how a knife would be better to defend yourself than a rifle against multiple armed opponents with body armor and then tried to tell me that modern knife proof armor, that can't stop rifle rounds but can stop pistols and knives, wouldn't stop knives.

With your magic kung foo powers.


And that is why guns aren't necessary for defense.

Well okay then, apparently we are "masturbating"; I am but that's irrelevant. xp

I'm not masturbating... And frankly you should stop talking down to others and start treating them as equal to you.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

YahuShalum

Suicidesoldier#1

False Dichotomy

My head is hurting from all of this idiocy. I'm leaving, you people aren't discussing, you're masturbating.

You tried to tell me how a knife would be better to defend yourself than a rifle against multiple armed opponents with body armor and then tried to tell me that modern knife proof armor, that can't stop rifle rounds but can stop pistols and knives, wouldn't stop knives.

With your magic kung foo powers.


And that is why guns aren't necessary for defense.

Well okay then, apparently we are "masturbating"; I am but that's irrelevant. xp

I'm not masturbating... And frankly you should stop talking down to others and start treating them as equal to you.

lol xD

Denial is only one more ring on the ladder. xp

[Keltoi Samurai]

False Dichotomy

but I've never heard of any fancy shmancy body armor that stops a knife. Joints are joints, if you armor it, you can't move it.

that's a real limited understanding of armor.

most people who don't understand armor, fail to understand it the other way: they think it's magic that allows them to shrug off otherwise fatal attacks like they were nothing.

as you can see, it's not perfect, but it IS both stabproof and flexible.