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Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Hmm, I can see how this is a good thing, but it's also bad if the parents won't then let the child express how xe wants to. If xe wants to play with Barbies, I hope the parents then won't discourage it, because they like the attention they get from their gender-neutral child.


Oh come on. Really?
I could say "s/he" but the child is gender-neutral, "they" is grammatically unpleasant, and "it" is rude. You don't have to complain about my use of contemporary pronouns for an unusual situation. It's a stupid thing to nitpick about. When people use "xe" or call themselves omnisexual, just let it be. It's dumb to go "THOSE WORDS AREN'T REAL!" and start a huge argument over it.
Dandrogyny
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Hmm, I can see how this is a good thing, but it's also bad if the parents won't then let the child express how xe wants to. If xe wants to play with Barbies, I hope the parents then won't discourage it, because they like the attention they get from their gender-neutral child.


Oh come on. Really?
I could say "s/he" but the child is gender-neutral, "they" is grammatically unpleasant, and "it" is rude. You don't have to complain about my use of contemporary pronouns for an unusual situation. It's a stupid thing to nitpick about. When people use "xe" or call themselves omnisexual, just let it be. It's dumb to go "THOSE WORDS AREN'T REAL!" and start a huge argument over it.


"They" is grammatically unpleasant? How? Sounds like you're grasping at straws in order to justify using a form of terminology that is unnecessary, considering the presence of perfectly acceptable neutral language.

I don't have to complain about anything. However, I do think it's a rather shallow piece of doublespeak that is intentionally designed to exclude through complication. Because the fact is, saying "xe" is no different to saying "it" except for the spelling and pronunciation, as it occupies the same space in language, as a gender neutral singular personal pronoun.

People are free to call themselves whatever they want. That doesn't mean I won't express my displeasure about such irritating political language.
Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Hmm, I can see how this is a good thing, but it's also bad if the parents won't then let the child express how xe wants to. If xe wants to play with Barbies, I hope the parents then won't discourage it, because they like the attention they get from their gender-neutral child.


Oh come on. Really?
I could say "s/he" but the child is gender-neutral, "they" is grammatically unpleasant, and "it" is rude. You don't have to complain about my use of contemporary pronouns for an unusual situation. It's a stupid thing to nitpick about. When people use "xe" or call themselves omnisexual, just let it be. It's dumb to go "THOSE WORDS AREN'T REAL!" and start a huge argument over it.


"They" is grammatically unpleasant? How? Sounds like you're grasping at straws in order to justify using a form of terminology that is unnecessary, considering the presence of perfectly acceptable neutral language.

I don't have to complain about anything. However, I do think it's a rather shallow piece of doublespeak that is intentionally designed to exclude through complication. Because the fact is, saying "xe" is no different to saying "it" except for the spelling and pronunciation.

People are free to call themselves whatever they want. That doesn't mean I won't express my displeasure about such irritating political language.
It's technically "correct" to use "they" but I don't like to. You pull your head out of my a**-- it doesn't belong there.

I don't see how it's "excluding" anyone, or anything. "It" is for an object, "xe" is for a person.

Be annoyed. Then get over it. Complaining won't change my language. You've complained. There isn't really going to be any sort of intelligent argument. You're just going to make a ton of accusations because you're pissed.
Dandrogyny
It's technically "correct" to use "they" but I don't like to. You pull your head out of my a**-- it doesn't belong there.

I don't see how it's "excluding" anyone, or anything. "It" is for an object, "xe" is for a person.

Be annoyed. Then get over it. Complaining won't change my language. You've complained. There isn't really going to be any sort of intelligent argument. You're just going to make a ton of accusations because you're pissed.


"It" refers to both subjects and objects. Why not seek to reclaim the term instead?

I didn't ask you to change your language, I only told you I think it's unnecessary political language.

A ton of accusations? Please. Let's refrain from telling each other how we are going to act, or where any possible debate would go, or how much "intellect" it would involve.
Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
It's technically "correct" to use "they" but I don't like to. You pull your head out of my a**-- it doesn't belong there.

I don't see how it's "excluding" anyone, or anything. "It" is for an object, "xe" is for a person.

Be annoyed. Then get over it. Complaining won't change my language. You've complained. There isn't really going to be any sort of intelligent argument. You're just going to make a ton of accusations because you're pissed.


"It" refers to both subjects and objects. Why not seek to reclaim the term instead?

I didn't ask you to change your language, I only told you I think it's unnecessary political language.

A ton of accusations? Please. Let's refrain from telling each other how we are going to act, or where any possible debate would go, or how much "intellect" it would involve.
Neither of which are people. The primary reasons I don't try to reclaim the term are because I'm not a gender-neutral person (therefore can't reclaim the word "for" them) and because the intersex community has made some pretty loud statements about not liking it.

Sure you did. You want me to use another word.

This will go somewhere stupid if you keep pushing it, because I've really said all that can be said on the subject.
marshmallowcreampie
I think it's unnecessary. Society as a whole has a problem, but hiding your child's gender won't really help anything. Parents should teach their kids that whether they are a boy or a girl, they don't have to restrict themselves to wearing a certain color or playing with certain toys or games.

On a side note... How will they stop the child from telling other kids what gender they are? Also, which bathrooms will the kid use?


Unisex, I suppose.
Dandrogyny
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
It's technically "correct" to use "they" but I don't like to. You pull your head out of my a**-- it doesn't belong there.

I don't see how it's "excluding" anyone, or anything. "It" is for an object, "xe" is for a person.

Be annoyed. Then get over it. Complaining won't change my language. You've complained. There isn't really going to be any sort of intelligent argument. You're just going to make a ton of accusations because you're pissed.


"It" refers to both subjects and objects. Why not seek to reclaim the term instead?

I didn't ask you to change your language, I only told you I think it's unnecessary political language.

A ton of accusations? Please. Let's refrain from telling each other how we are going to act, or where any possible debate would go, or how much "intellect" it would involve.
Neither of which are people. The primary reasons I don't try to reclaim the term are because I'm not a gender-neutral person (therefore can't reclaim the word "for" them) and because the intersex community has made some pretty loud statements about not liking it.

Sure you did. You want me to use another word.

This will go somewhere stupid if you keep pushing it, because I've really said all that can be said on the subject.


Subjects are people, in the sense that a subject is a being with subjective experience, consciousness and relationships. Although I accept that this is a philosophical, and not grammatical perception.

I'm pretty sure the homosexual community felt the same way about the term "queer" at one point too.

Wanting is not asking.

It is already somewhere stupid; people are making up words for concepts that already have words to explain them. I understand the point of creating a word to describe something that is not yet named. Not politicising language that already exists.
Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
It's technically "correct" to use "they" but I don't like to. You pull your head out of my a**-- it doesn't belong there.

I don't see how it's "excluding" anyone, or anything. "It" is for an object, "xe" is for a person.

Be annoyed. Then get over it. Complaining won't change my language. You've complained. There isn't really going to be any sort of intelligent argument. You're just going to make a ton of accusations because you're pissed.


"It" refers to both subjects and objects. Why not seek to reclaim the term instead?

I didn't ask you to change your language, I only told you I think it's unnecessary political language.

A ton of accusations? Please. Let's refrain from telling each other how we are going to act, or where any possible debate would go, or how much "intellect" it would involve.
Neither of which are people. The primary reasons I don't try to reclaim the term are because I'm not a gender-neutral person (therefore can't reclaim the word "for" them) and because the intersex community has made some pretty loud statements about not liking it.

Sure you did. You want me to use another word.

This will go somewhere stupid if you keep pushing it, because I've really said all that can be said on the subject.


Subjects are people, in the sense that a subject is a being with subjective experience, consciousness and relationships. Although I accept that this is a philosophical, and not grammatical perception.

I'm pretty sure the homosexual community felt the same way about the term "queer" at one point too.

Wanting is not asking.

It is already somewhere stupid; people are making up words for concepts that already have words to explain them. I understand the point of creating a word to describe something that is not yet named. Not politicising language that already exists.
Since there are people who have said they do not want to be called by this term, I am going to respect the fact that they (plural) don't wish to be called "it".

Difference is that gay people reclaimed it. I am not a gender-neutral person, so it's not my place to reclaim it "for" them.

Wanting and making that apparent by telling the other person is basically asking. And if you're not asking, why are you complaining? Just to complain? Well that's petty.

It's not a word I made up. I've gotten it from other people. I've seen it used by a number of them. It only got stupid once you started whining about it.
Dandrogyny
Since there are people who have said they do not want to be called by this term, I am going to respect the fact that they (plural) don't wish to be called "it".

Difference is that gay people reclaimed it. I am not a gender-neutral person, so it's not my place to reclaim it "for" them.

Wanting and making that apparent by telling the other person is basically asking. And if you're not asking, why are you complaining? Just to complain? Well that's petty.

It's not a word I made up. I've gotten it from other people. I've seen it used by a number of them. It only got stupid once you started whining about it.


I didn't say for one moment that I'm going to call people "it" whether they like it or not. Not liking certain terms doesn't mean I'm happy to offend people in order to use language I see as more apt.

I didn't say you should reclaim it for anyone. I merely pointed out that their current dislike of the term doesn't stop them reclaiming it.

If I actually wanted you to change I would ask. If I'm not asking, why am I complaining? Because expressing my view on the matter in a public forum is my intention, not some concealed method of asking you to use different terms.

I didn't say you made it up. I said people made it up for political purposes. It is inherently stupid due to its doublespeak nature. The word "xe" means "it", but is dressed up to look like "he" or "she" so that people can pretend they're referring to themselves as something other than "it". The only reason we associate "it" with objects is because we don't use gendered pronouns for objects like in German or French.
Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
Since there are people who have said they do not want to be called by this term, I am going to respect the fact that they (plural) don't wish to be called "it".

Difference is that gay people reclaimed it. I am not a gender-neutral person, so it's not my place to reclaim it "for" them.

Wanting and making that apparent by telling the other person is basically asking. And if you're not asking, why are you complaining? Just to complain? Well that's petty.

It's not a word I made up. I've gotten it from other people. I've seen it used by a number of them. It only got stupid once you started whining about it.


I didn't say for one moment that I'm going to call people "it" whether they like it or not. Not liking certain terms doesn't mean I'm happy to offend people in order to use language I see as more apt.

I didn't say you should reclaim it for anyone. I merely pointed out that their current dislike of the term doesn't stop them reclaiming it.

If I actually wanted you to change I would ask. If I'm not asking, why am I complaining? Because expressing my view on the matter in a public forum is my intention, not some concealed method of asking you to use different terms.

I didn't say you made it up. I said people made it up for political purposes. It is inherently stupid due to its doublespeak nature. The word means "it", but is dressed up to look like "he" or "she" so that people can pretend they're referring to themselves as something other than "it".
And I won't be calling them "it" either.

That's up to them. Not me.

Unfortunately it's completely off topic. Seems like you just wanted to start s**t.

A lot of words get "made up". Intersex wasn't always around either but now it's become a medical term, since "hermaphrodite" was both medically inaccurate and offensive. It's not "doublespeak," nor is it stupid. "It" is offensive and does not apply to people, no matter what you say. Get over it.
Dandrogyny
And I won't be calling them "it" either.

That's up to them. Not me.

Unfortunately it's completely off topic. Seems like you just wanted to start s**t.

A lot of words get "made up". Intersex wasn't always around either but now it's become a medical term, since "hermaphrodite" was both medically inaccurate and offensive. It's not "doublespeak," nor is it stupid. "It" is offensive and does not apply to people, no matter what you say. Get over it.


I didn't ask you to. You seem to think I've been suggesting that you should call them "it", when all I've been doing is expressing how daft I think "xe" is.

Granted.

It's off topic to talk about appropriate gender-neutral terminology in a topic about a gender-neutral child? I don't think so chap.

The word isn't useless because it's made up. It's useless because I am a firm believer that words exist to reference points in perceptual reality as a mental concept. As far as mental concepts go, the sentiment you have been trying to express already exists in "they". So to me, using "xe" is like saying "I don't like the word gravy, so I'm going to call it gravenings".

It deliberately disguises and distorts the meaning of words. It is doublespeak.

I didn't deny "it" is offensive. I'm questioning why we consider it offensive, as it doesn't apply exclusively to objects, and we only assume it does because we don't use gendered pronouns for objects in English.

"Get over it"? Grow up. I can use the same attitude to say "Xe is a ******** dumb word. Get over it."
Desideraht's avatar

Dapper Phantom

Blind Guardian the 2nd
Dandrogyny
And I won't be calling them "it" either.

That's up to them. Not me.

Unfortunately it's completely off topic. Seems like you just wanted to start s**t.

A lot of words get "made up". Intersex wasn't always around either but now it's become a medical term, since "hermaphrodite" was both medically inaccurate and offensive. It's not "doublespeak," nor is it stupid. "It" is offensive and does not apply to people, no matter what you say. Get over it.


I didn't ask you to. You seem to think I've been suggesting that you should call them "it", when all I've been doing is expressing how daft I think "xe" is.

Granted.

It's off topic to talk about appropriate gender-neutral terminology in a topic about a gender-neutral child? I don't think so chap.

The word isn't useless because it's made up. It's useless because I am a firm believer that words exist to reference points in perceptual reality as a mental concept. As far as mental concepts go, the sentiment you have been trying to express already exists in "they". So to me, using "xe" is like saying "I don't like the word gravy, so I'm going to call it gravenings".

It deliberately disguises and distorts the meaning of words. It is doublespeak.

I didn't deny "it" is offensive. I'm questioning why we consider it offensive, as it doesn't apply exclusively to objects, and we only assume it does because we don't use gendered pronouns for objects in English.

"Get over it"? Grow up. I can use the same attitude to say "Xe is a ******** dumb word. Get over it."
You don't like "xe", you're not asking me to call them "it", so what are you suggesting? I'm guessing you want me to use "they", and I already explained why I don't use it.

This argument got stupid and went in circles like I said it would. Have a ********' beer so you can relax your tight a*****e a bit.

Your "firm beliefs" aren't relevant. By now enough people know what the word means. You didn't even have to ask what it meant. It isn't confusing anybody. And when you tell people you use it because calling people "it" is weird, it doesn't take much more for them to get it. You don't give people's intelligence enough credit. You must also hate all slang.

The word "gravy" isn't a word ABOUT people that offends them. Since intersex people and gender-neutral people have voiced not wanting to be called "it", and a number of them also really don't like "they" and really do prefer "xe", I'm going to go with what they've been asking for. I'm pretty sure they're the authority on naming themselves and "making up" words. I'm not gonna crawl three times up their asses about it.

The "true" grammatical use of "it" is irrelevant. The word bothers people in reference to themselves, so I don't use it. This is not a difficult concept.

I don't need somebody flipping out over one word telling me to "grow up," thanks. Say whatever you want, I won't throw a fit. You've essentially already said that last sentence, you just went off on a tangent instead. I might have preferred you to keep it short and not waste so much time on nothing.
Yeah I feel really bad for the kid. What happens when he's like 6 and the kids at school are like "Are you a boy or a girl?" and then he feels like s**t? Niiiiiicicccciciciieeeee.
Scarred Sword Heart's avatar

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Not allowing a child to have a gender identity would only cause them to be ostracized by peers. I say let the child have their gender identity, but don't force them to conform to the mores and stereotypes of the gender.

Lucy is a girl, but if she prefers plastic dinosaurs to dolls, this is fine. Ben is a boy, but if he likes to wear dresses and play with dolls, that's OK too.

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