So... what should we do about Crimea?

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

You know that part of the final Twilight book?

Uh... no? xp

Oh, that's unfortunate. You would have agreed with me had you read it and known what I was talking about.

Some how I still doubt that xp

[BATCATGIRL]

It sounds like world war 3 is going to happen.
But I really don't want this to happen cause that is an insult to the people who fought in World War 1 and 2. I mean there is a reason why we remember of those soldiers who died and fought the war. Is so it DOESNT happen again.

But these nutters are so bored they thinking "Heck lets have a war, cause well I'm bored".
To many people in the government stay too long in power and it goes to there heads.


You either die as a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become a villain.

[Tackle and Tickle]

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

How about we do nothing for a change? We don't have to police the world. It just ends up pissing everyone off anyway.

Talk to the UN about that. They're the ones who insist most of the time.

Then let them send UN troops. We don't have to act by ourselves.

The US military ARE the UN's troops.

Not necessary. Yes the US has the largest presence in UN troops, but blame the other governments for that not the US.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Tackle and Tickle

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

How about we do nothing for a change? We don't have to police the world. It just ends up pissing everyone off anyway.

Talk to the UN about that. They're the ones who insist most of the time.

Then let them send UN troops. We don't have to act by ourselves.

The US military ARE the UN's troops.

Not necessary. Yes the US has the largest presence in UN troops, but blame the other governments for that not the US.

Well, kinda do blame the US, since the whole thing stems from us agreeing after WWII that we'd have Europe's back while they rebuilt, and them just deciding to rebuild everything but their militaries, since the US had their backs anyways.

[Fermionic]

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

You know that part of the final Twilight book?

Uh... no? xp

Oh, that's unfortunate. You would have agreed with me had you read it and known what I was talking about.

Some how I still doubt that xp

You don't know what you're talking about.

[In Medias Res IV]

Atilius

In Medias Res IV

Atilius

In Medias Res IV

Atilius

what i remember from my high school 'little brother' who was a transfer from Ukraine, there really is a divide over Russia. some parts of Ukraine don't like Russia at all, while others really do. he was from the school of thought that Russian, Ukrainian, they are the same.

as i see it, we need to let things develop a bit more. while the sanctions are good to avoid Russia just taking over all of Ukraine in one swoop, i will understand if Ukraine is partitioned by the two feuding positions. the downside, however, is if Russia takes the oil and gas segments of Ukraine then it's the equivalent of taking the whole country since chances are, what doesn't join Russia will be 'smoked out' so to speak.

U.S. media focuses on the rioting groups and those that do not want Russian control, so i cannot say too much as my information is skewed. if it is true that there are large rioting groups that truly support a Ukraine that is closer to the EU than Russia, then i believe their notions should be respected.

Except, Crimea is already under Russian jurisdiction and never wanted to be a part of the Ukraine in the first place - which is why it was an autonomous region. The Ukraine will have the EU to babysit them, and the US and NATO to police them, they'll collapse just like Greece and Cyprus.

I have a funny feeling Putin was just protecting Crimea from Westernization, since he knew that the illegal coup in Kiev would bring anti-Russian sentiments to a predominantly Russian-speaking region.

Not saying I support Russia, or how things in Crimea went down, but it needs to be expressed that Western interests are not for the betterment of Crimeans.

before i move much further, can you tell me which definition of 'westernization' you are working from? that sounded snarky but i mean this in honesty not belittlement.

let me take a step back as well: i am not in support of the U.S. or E.U. stepping in with Crimea. they wanted to be with Russia, they can be with Russia. there is literally no reason for us to top a willing nation from joining with another. i'm nervous (probably pointlessly so) about how tensions along the Ukraine and Russian boarder are going.

Westernization is probably not the right word. I just mean signing up with the globalist EU/US/NATO/UN capitalist-monopolizing, war-mongering agenda. We don't set sanctions against the illegal state of Israel, but we sanction Russia for protecting her interests, and everyone thinks Russia is alone in being 'evil'. Me loves it.

honestly, if we're going to spout any theories (as they are all theories) i will point to gas industry rather than globalized capitalism. to be honest, Ukraine has long since been part of the global economy and has many major corporations associated with 'westernization' there. i can more see the U.S. interest in Ukraine with the E.U. to make them more dependent on U.S. oil rather than Russian oil.

i will not touch on Israel since i cannot fathom the intense amount of confounding information there is on that matter. my very gas-industry-hating-theories aside, "Russia's interest" also confuses me. what do you think theirs is? honestly as i see it, it's just the U.S. and Russia having a pissing contest with each other over who will sell Ukraine oil. if we take Russia and the U.S. out of this mess entirely and let Ukraine figure itself out... awesome...

you know what. in a very poor way this feels like a move situation: Ukraine is the beloved dog and you have the U.S. and the E.U. on one side and Russia on the other... but Russia just took out some bacon and started waving it around. the bacon being Crimea.

it would be great if everyone backed of and let Ukraine solve itself without other countries 'fighting over it's best interest'.

NATO is a ******** disaster. That's not a theory. The other day marked the 15 year anniversary of the inhumane bombings of Yugoslavia... but yes, let's just force everyone to be a part of NATO.

As I've said, I truly believe that Putin is (also) trying to protect the best interests of the Russian majority in Crimea since the illegitimate government of Ukraine has very anti-Russian sentiments. Crimea, particularly Sevastopol, is very culturally important for Russia from a historical perspective and a military perspective.


Honestly, taking in Crimea is going to cost Russia BILLIONS of dollars, and Putin's first priority is to raise Crimean pension pay-outs to Russian standards - double what they were getting under Ukranian rule, amongst other things... Putting sanctions on Russia when she is just trying to help these people is not exactly the most humanitarian move.

[N3bu]

In Medias Res IV

As I've said, I truly believe that Putin is (also) trying to protect the best interests of the Russian majority in Crimea since the illegitimate government of Ukraine has very anti-Russian sentiments.

Ha! That's the biggest load of horse manure I've read this week, and our national paper is a right wing Murdoch wank fest.

Edit: Although I'll be fair, i have read that our Monarchist PM want's to reinstate knight and dame titles. So probably not the biggest. I swear to god, my country is going back in time.

Putin is trying to protect the best interests of Putin. I'm not going to sit here and tell you some horse s**t story about the west defending democracy or liberalism or whatever it is these days, they've also been clearly self serving in this issue.

I mean, if the West Ukrainian population was going to cause some unrest about the government decision to cut ties with the EU in favor of Russia, I find it hard to believe NATO wouldn't jump on that chance to secure their interest in Ukraine.

At the same time, however, Putin isn't some white knight. NATO allies are fighting pretty hard these days to push the modern western global community, something Russia has flitted around following the collapse of the USSR and the "end" of the cold war. That didn't really change much in the scheme of things, post 1991. The Russian nationalists which pretty much run the country still hated the US and NATO, war or no war.

Putin sees NATO encroaching further into the Russian sphere of influence, of course he's going to try and do something of secure it, Crimea is also one of Russia's really important ports, that they tend to lack. It doesn't help him though that Russian Oil and Gas interests have tended to benefit from the before mentioned global community allowing them to sell large reserves into Europe for big money, hence the Economic reaction in Russia after the invasion.

All in all, there isn't really a good guy in the situation, we've just slipped back into cold war mode where two super powers feel need to fight over a satellite state, while somehow working under the pretense that the cold war actually ended.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

In Medias Res IV

Until China calls in their loans wink

Yeah, America having all of China's money and stuff when they have our "word".

That's going to bring down the west. xp

[AsuraSyn]

In Medias Res IV

You should be nervous about the tensions, but not because of Putin, but because of Obama pushing the issue and supporting the Ukraine because Russia does not want to pander to Obama's form of government.

(talking to everyone here) Look, Putin has issues, no one is denying that. But aside from the whole "OMG GAY PEOPLE" argument, you have to admit that he's a strong leader for Russia. Not every country in the world has to operate like America - thank the gods.

Strong leader doesn't mean a good one. Stalin was strong. Hitler was strong. McCarthy was strong. George W. Bush was strong. Walt Disney was strong.
Because of his stance on homosexuals alone Putin needs to be assassinated, but this adventurism without restraint is just a massive d**k move. That's our move! He's got no business usin it!

[AsuraSyn]

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

Tell me, how does one call for aid when one has the oppressor standing over them with a Kalashnikov pointed at one's head?

[AsuraSyn]

Tackle and Tickle

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

Then why didn't they try to secede before Russian troops invaded?

Russian troops never left Crimea. It's been acting as a naval base.
The Western propaganda machine is countering Russian propaganda with their own damn propaganda.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/crimea-residents-vote-secede-ukraine-article-1.1723691

More than 58% of Crimeans identify as Russian. More than 77% identify Russian as their native tongue.
http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/2014/3/map-russian-the-dominantlanguageincrimea.html

UK-EU sponsored the coup:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-destabilizes-ukraine/5367744
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev

It's okay when the US harbours their interests, but Russia can't protect their own interests. Funny how hypocrisy works.

The illegal government in Kiev is a threat to the Russian Crimeans. Why would they want to support a Ukrainian nationalist government that wants to minimalize their heritage?

http://rt.com/news/russian-tv-suspended-ukraine-242/

First, there has been no coup.

The acting president resigned. Second, the new president was elected and was a previous member of parliament.


Third, there are more troops there then there are supposed to be and they are actively taking over military bases where they aren't allowed, and have clashed with the Ukrainian military, which was also not allowed.

The U.S. has troop allowances in Germany, but storming their capital isn't the same as being in a registered base under very specific conditions.


Finally, the polls can't be trusted given the circumstances.

There was a coup, and you missed it while you were too concerned with America's Official Story on the issue to take notice.

http://rt.com/news/us-aid-ukraine-illegal-202/

Strange using sources that are anti-American; don't like the current American government (anti-Obama); or outright owned by the Russian Government as proof.


That being said I think the US should stay out of it. I for one don't mind a stronger Russian Government. My reason is when we competed against Russia we had reasons to make jobs and challenge us to out do Russian Government.

emotion_hug
We all miss the Cold War, bro.
*sniff*
DRAGOOOOOOO!

[Suicidesoldier#1]

N3bu

In Medias Res IV

As I've said, I truly believe that Putin is (also) trying to protect the best interests of the Russian majority in Crimea since the illegitimate government of Ukraine has very anti-Russian sentiments.

Ha! That's the biggest load of horse manure I've read this week, and our national paper is a right wing Murdoch wank fest.

Edit: Although I'll be fair, i have read that our Monarchist PM want's to reinstate knight and dame titles. So probably not the biggest. I swear to god, my country is going back in time.

Putin is trying to protect the best interests of Putin. I'm not going to sit here and tell you some horse s**t story about the west defending democracy or liberalism or whatever it is these days, they've also been clearly self serving in this issue.

I mean, if the West Ukrainian population was going to cause some unrest about the government decision to cut ties with the EU in favor of Russia, I find it hard to believe NATO wouldn't jump on that chance to secure their interest in Ukraine.

At the same time, however, Putin isn't some white knight. NATO allies are fighting pretty hard these days to push the modern western global community, something Russia has flitted around following the collapse of the USSR and the "end" of the cold war. That didn't really change much in the scheme of things, post 1991. The Russian nationalists which pretty much run the country still hated the US and NATO, war or no war.

Putin sees NATO encroaching further into the Russian sphere of influence, of course he's going to try and do something of secure it, Crimea is also one of Russia's really important ports, that they tend to lack. It doesn't help him though that Russian Oil and Gas interests have tended to benefit from the before mentioned global community allowing them to sell large reserves into Europe for big money, hence the Economic reaction in Russia after the invasion.

All in all, there isn't really a good guy in the situation, we've just slipped back into cold war mode where two super powers feel need to fight over a satellite state, while somehow working under the pretense that the cold war actually ended.

What does the "west" have to gain by challenging Russia over this?

If anything ignoring it would be in our best interests. xp

[Fermionic]

AsuraSyn

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

Tell me, how does one call for aid when one has the oppressor standing over them with a Kalashnikov pointed at one's head?

I would say it was the magnitude of your gross over-exaggeration that is at fault in your statement.

[AsuraSyn]

Fermionic

AsuraSyn

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

Tell me, how does one call for aid when one has the oppressor standing over them with a Kalashnikov pointed at one's head?

I would say it was the magnitude of your gross over-exaggeration that is at fault in your statement.

In other words, you don't have a good answer?
Or you don't know that Russia, historically, isn't well known for letting people defect/speak out against them?

[Fermionic]

AsuraSyn

Fermionic

AsuraSyn

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

Tell me, how does one call for aid when one has the oppressor standing over them with a Kalashnikov pointed at one's head?

I would say it was the magnitude of your gross over-exaggeration that is at fault in your statement.

In other words, you don't have a good answer?
Or you don't know that Russia, historically, isn't well known for letting people defect/speak out against them?

My answer was fairly clear, actually. Unless such a situation was the case; that every Crimean had a Kalashnikov pointed at their head and were unable to use telephone or internet based communications, or in fact any form of surreptitious communication methods, then I don't think that you statement has any real worth. The Crimean peninsula is very big, larger than Wales. If there was a lot of dissent amongst the people of the Crimea, the world would know. It would be clearer than "There was a poll with an awful lot of people wanting to be a part of Russia, we think it is suspicious".

Russian control in the peninsula isn't such that any sorts of communication with that message wouldn't be able to get out, and if it was in the overwhelming majority, it would. I believe that telephone and internet connections are still present, when last I checked.

Perhaps I have merely been negligent of the news; but I see an abundant lack of any such prevalent sentiment.