So... what should we do about Crimea?

[Bogotanian]

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

America invades and violates sovereignty of other nations all the time. Who is going to police Obamanation?

First of all, I would agree with you on who is going to police Obamanation.

But I have a question. If the people of Crimea wanted to secede and join Russia (they are mostly Russian-descent and speak Russian as I understand) why didn't they do so before the the intervention of the Russian military? Now I can't claim to know exactly what's going on over there with all the biased media, but why didn't they hold a referendum before, not at the gunpoint of an imposing military? Or would you claim that they tried before but the repressive government of Ukraine wouldn't allow it or that other regions in Ukraine would not allow them to secede and that Russia liberated them in a sense?

[HMS Thunder Child]

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

America invades and violates sovereignty of other nations all the time. Who is going to police Obamanation?

[Frank]

No one watches the watchmen, which is why the US and Russia are always up each others' asses. No one else to do it. Especially since the US, despite its many flaws, is rich as all ******** and money talks.

[pinchot]

In Medias Res IV

Atilius

In Medias Res IV

Atilius

what i remember from my high school 'little brother' who was a transfer from Ukraine, there really is a divide over Russia. some parts of Ukraine don't like Russia at all, while others really do. he was from the school of thought that Russian, Ukrainian, they are the same.

as i see it, we need to let things develop a bit more. while the sanctions are good to avoid Russia just taking over all of Ukraine in one swoop, i will understand if Ukraine is partitioned by the two feuding positions. the downside, however, is if Russia takes the oil and gas segments of Ukraine then it's the equivalent of taking the whole country since chances are, what doesn't join Russia will be 'smoked out' so to speak.

U.S. media focuses on the rioting groups and those that do not want Russian control, so i cannot say too much as my information is skewed. if it is true that there are large rioting groups that truly support a Ukraine that is closer to the EU than Russia, then i believe their notions should be respected.

Except, Crimea is already under Russian jurisdiction and never wanted to be a part of the Ukraine in the first place - which is why it was an autonomous region. The Ukraine will have the EU to babysit them, and the US and NATO to police them, they'll collapse just like Greece and Cyprus.

I have a funny feeling Putin was just protecting Crimea from Westernization, since he knew that the illegal coup in Kiev would bring anti-Russian sentiments to a predominantly Russian-speaking region.

Not saying I support Russia, or how things in Crimea went down, but it needs to be expressed that Western interests are not for the betterment of Crimeans.

before i move much further, can you tell me which definition of 'westernization' you are working from? that sounded snarky but i mean this in honesty not belittlement.

let me take a step back as well: i am not in support of the U.S. or E.U. stepping in with Crimea. they wanted to be with Russia, they can be with Russia. there is literally no reason for us to top a willing nation from joining with another. i'm nervous (probably pointlessly so) about how tensions along the Ukraine and Russian boarder are going.

Westernization is probably not the right word. I just mean signing up with the globalist EU/US/NATO/UN capitalist-monopolizing, war-mongering agenda. We don't set sanctions against the illegal state of Israel, but we sanction Russia for protecting her interests, and everyone thinks Russia is alone in being 'evil'. Me loves it.

honestly, if we're going to spout any theories (as they are all theories) i will point to gas industry rather than globalized capitalism. to be honest, Ukraine has long since been part of the global economy and has many major corporations associated with 'westernization' there. i can more see the U.S. interest in Ukraine with the E.U. to make them more dependent on U.S. oil rather than Russian oil.

i will not touch on Israel since i cannot fathom the intense amount of confounding information there is on that matter. my very gas-industry-hating-theories aside, "Russia's interest" also confuses me. what do you think theirs is? honestly as i see it, it's just the U.S. and Russia having a pissing contest with each other over who will sell Ukraine oil. if we take Russia and the U.S. out of this mess entirely and let Ukraine figure itself out... awesome...

you know what. in a very poor way this feels like a move situation: Ukraine is the beloved dog and you have the U.S. and the E.U. on one side and Russia on the other... but Russia just took out some bacon and started waving it around. the bacon being Crimea.

it would be great if everyone backed of and let Ukraine solve itself without other countries 'fighting over it's best interest'.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

[King Shining Heaven]

Nothing; this is not our fight

[Fermionic]

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

You know that part of the final Twilight book?

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

You know that part of the final Twilight book?

Uh... no? xp

[Fermionic]

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

When Russia assumes military control over an area for reasons undefined, the area itself votes in favour of annexation, and there is a definite lack of a call for US aid, and the US is thousands of miles away, and because the real reason is just because you wish to smite Russia, then yes. Do nothing.

I don't really want to smite Russia, I was hoping we'd be pals D:

This sudden turn of events has been staggering.


The vote was rigged, because either way meant joining Russia, and there was no way to preserve the status Quo; furthermore, there's no outside observers and all of the sudden out of the blue conveniently after Russia invades, Crimea wants to join Russia?

Why didn't they try to join Russia before the invasion, exactly, the option has always been on the table; regardless, there was no third party observers and the question in the vote was convoluted at best (with Crimea choosing to revert back to the 1992 constitution, and then 1 day later being "annexed" into Russia, with their leaders at gunpoint signing it) so I wouldn't really call it a legitimate vote.

You know that part of the final Twilight book?

Uh... no? xp

Oh, that's unfortunate. You would have agreed with me had you read it and known what I was talking about.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Shama_okami

How about we do nothing for a change? We don't have to police the world. It just ends up pissing everyone off anyway.

Talk to the UN about that. They're the ones who insist most of the time.

[Brothern]

Hidden Path

But I have a question. If the people of Crimea wanted to secede and join Russia (they are mostly Russian-descent and speak Russian as I understand) why didn't they do so before the the intervention of the Russian military? Now I can't claim to know exactly what's going on over there with all the biased media, but why didn't they hold a referendum before, not at the gunpoint of an imposing military? Or would you claim that they tried before but the repressive government of Ukraine wouldn't allow it or that other regions in Ukraine would not allow them to secede and that Russia liberated them in a sense?

Crimea tried. It was not legal for them to secede under the Constitution of Ukraine. Previously there was a political crisis and referendum to become an independent state in 1991-2, but the move instead resulted in Ukraine granting Crimea a large degree of autonomy. That's how the Crimean parliament and Constitution were created in the first place.

It's an argument that has two perspectives and no real solution. Crimea IS a part of Ukraine. The citizens are Ukrainian citizens, and the government supports the region with its tax money and military. There are a number of minority ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars living there that do not wish to be Russian. Crimea simply does not have the legal authority to become a separate state, or to join Russia.

AT THE SAME TIME, the majority of ethnic Russians living there strongly oppose the actions of the Ukrainian government and do not identify as Ukrainian. They do not want to be a part of Ukraine. Do they have the right to overrule the Ukrainian Constitution and determine their future? /shrug.

Whatever the case, they're joining Russia regardless.

[In Medias Res IV]

HMS Thunder Child

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

Nothing, you should do nothing about Crimea.

It isn't your responsibility.

Who's responsibility is it?

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

America invades and violates sovereignty of other nations all the time. Who is going to police Obamanation?

[Frank]

No one watches the watchmen, which is why the US and Russia are always up each others' asses. No one else to do it. Especially since the US, despite its many flaws, is rich as all ******** and money talks.

Until China calls in their loans wink

[HMS Thunder Child]

In Medias Res IV

HMS Thunder Child

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

Fermionic

The peoples of the Crimea, and the Ukrainian governing body.

So when Russia invades and violates their sovereignty we should do nothing?

America invades and violates sovereignty of other nations all the time. Who is going to police Obamanation?

[Frank]

No one watches the watchmen, which is why the US and Russia are always up each others' asses. No one else to do it. Especially since the US, despite its many flaws, is rich as all ******** and money talks.

Until China calls in their loans wink

The amount of power they have in that avenue tends to be overstated. We are economically codependent otherwise, though.

[Tackle and Tickle]

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

In Medias Res IV

Suicidesoldier#1

In Medias Res IV

Atilius

what i remember from my high school 'little brother' who was a transfer from Ukraine, there really is a divide over Russia. some parts of Ukraine don't like Russia at all, while others really do. he was from the school of thought that Russian, Ukrainian, they are the same.

as i see it, we need to let things develop a bit more. while the sanctions are good to avoid Russia just taking over all of Ukraine in one swoop, i will understand if Ukraine is partitioned by the two feuding positions. the downside, however, is if Russia takes the oil and gas segments of Ukraine then it's the equivalent of taking the whole country since chances are, what doesn't join Russia will be 'smoked out' so to speak.

U.S. media focuses on the rioting groups and those that do not want Russian control, so i cannot say too much as my information is skewed. if it is true that there are large rioting groups that truly support a Ukraine that is closer to the EU than Russia, then i believe their notions should be respected.

Except, Crimea is already under Russian jurisdiction and never wanted to be a part of the Ukraine in the first place - which is why it was an autonomous region. The Ukraine will have the EU to babysit them, and the US and NATO to police them, they'll collapse just like Greece and Cyprus.

I have a funny feeling Putin was just protecting Crimea from Westernization, since he knew that the illegal coup in Kiev would bring anti-Russian sentiments to a predominantly Russian-speaking region.

Not saying I support Russia, or how things in Crimea went down, but it needs to be expressed that Western interests are not for the betterment of Crimeans.

Then why didn't they try to secede before Russian troops invaded?

Russian troops never left Crimea. It's been acting as a naval base.
The Western propaganda machine is countering Russian propaganda with their own damn propaganda.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/crimea-residents-vote-secede-ukraine-article-1.1723691

More than 58% of Crimeans identify as Russian. More than 77% identify Russian as their native tongue.
http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/2014/3/map-russian-the-dominantlanguageincrimea.html

UK-EU sponsored the coup:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-destabilizes-ukraine/5367744
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev

It's okay when the US harbours their interests, but Russia can't protect their own interests. Funny how hypocrisy works.

The illegal government in Kiev is a threat to the Russian Crimeans. Why would they want to support a Ukrainian nationalist government that wants to minimalize their heritage?

http://rt.com/news/russian-tv-suspended-ukraine-242/

First, there has been no coup.

The acting president resigned. Second, the new president was elected and was a previous member of parliament.


Third, there are more troops there then there are supposed to be and they are actively taking over military bases where they aren't allowed, and have clashed with the Ukrainian military, which was also not allowed.

The U.S. has troop allowances in Germany, but storming their capital isn't the same as being in a registered base under very specific conditions.


Finally, the polls can't be trusted given the circumstances.

There was a coup, and you missed it while you were too concerned with America's Official Story on the issue to take notice.

http://rt.com/news/us-aid-ukraine-illegal-202/

Strange using sources that are anti-American; don't like the current American government (anti-Obama); or outright owned by the Russian Government as proof.


That being said I think the US should stay out of it. I for one don't mind a stronger Russian Government. My reason is when we competed against Russia we had reasons to make jobs and challenge us to out do Russian Government.

[Shama_okami]

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

How about we do nothing for a change? We don't have to police the world. It just ends up pissing everyone off anyway.

Talk to the UN about that. They're the ones who insist most of the time.

Then let them send UN troops. We don't have to act by ourselves.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Shama_okami

Keltoi Samurai

Shama_okami

How about we do nothing for a change? We don't have to police the world. It just ends up pissing everyone off anyway.

Talk to the UN about that. They're the ones who insist most of the time.

Then let them send UN troops. We don't have to act by ourselves.

The US military ARE the UN's troops.