So Gay marriage failed again...

[Bento the spazcat]

God ******** damnit. does anyone know who I could join to help fight the hate? Particularly I want to get a few TV commercials out on the air to help counter the mormon-funded propaganda from 8.

((and for lulz, if they would get on Fox.))

[M. Angel]

Yoshpet

M. Angel

Yoshpet

Because opponents like you cannot be persuaded by these organized movements. People will have to open their minds, not their pocketbooks, before equal rights will be offered.

If I'm understanding this right then I believe I agree with you.

@GunsmithKitten: You don't have to apologize, as I said I don't personally care (strong believer in first amendment rights) I would just like for the discussion to stay close to my initial topic.

So then, how are the homosexuals to address your personal issue with their romantic lives? How are they to address religions that forbid their pairing? And stranger secular arguments?

What hoop are they required to jump through before you can leave them be?

(I hesitate at taking myself off my initial topic, but-)

I will specify my personal beliefs a bit. I take no issue with the pairings themselves of homosexual couples, simply giving it the title of marriage. I do believe that a system similar to the one that existed and still exists in CA, which states that civil unions have the same rights and responsibilities as marriage, would satisfy me, personally.

In terms of religions that forbid their pairings, I don't believe that the religious institutions should change to the people, but people change to fit their religion, IF they choose to follow it. Since religion is something that runs deeply within a person and holds to a specific set of values, the values themselves shouldn't change.

This, however, is just my personal belief. Not to say that others should take it up, but it's what I follow.

@Sumitsu01: I agree with you. I find it to be far more difficult to try and come up with reasons against interracial marriage, and as such find no problem with it.

[synesthesia_death]

M. Angel

Does this mean you take the position opposite to mine in that the No on 8 did everything that they could?

Well, I can barely remember the vote no on 8 commercials... And I suppose attention and memory would be their aim....
But still, I was just recalling how silly the 'yes' ones were to me, and how surprised I was(and would be) if they were responsible in a significant way for the results.

[GunsmithKitten]

Quote:

I do believe that a system similar to the one that existed and still exists in CA, which states that civil unions have the same rights and responsibilities as marriage

Hold it right there.

Civil Unions do NOT have the same rights and repsonsibilities. I can dig out a rather long list detailing it if you like.

As for religion, that's neither here nor there since there are religious figures and sects that have already stated they will spiritually recognize and sanctify same sex unions. This is all about legal benefits.

[DishPit Hero]

Quote:

I'll say this again for those that I know will want to flame this thread:

-This is not a debate on whether Gay marriage should be accepted.

-This is not a discussion on whether homosexuality is or is not a moral/religious sin.

-This is not a screaming contest over my or anyone else who posts personal views on gay marriage.

This Is For The CO3O3 My People
We Got The Music That You Can't Stand Still To

I Take This To Mean You Don't Want Conversation?

And Even If You Don't Dance, Don't Dance
I Gotta Get You Out And Take This Chance

Enie Menie Minie Mo
So Much Bitches At Our Shows
Different State A Different Ho
Which Of Them Should I Take Home?

[M. Angel]

Stygian Soleil

M. Angel

But what I'm asking is that, when in the supreme court, why is the representation of the group so poor when, as you say, they shouldn't have to be fighting in the supreme court?

Why would the fact that they shouldn't be fighting in the supreme court at all indicate that their representation in the supreme court would be strong?

Quote:

Also, if it is due to rampant ignorance and bigotry, shouldn't that make the job of said representatives easier? With all the chips seemingly stacked in the groups favor, why couldn't they pull themselves together?

Of course not. Ignorance and bigotry are deeply rooted in this society as a result of years upon years of indoctrination and misinformation.

The chips are very much stacked against them for just such a reason.

It's getting late, however I'd like to put a response to anyone who has directly quoted me so far before I go to sleep. To the above.

First question:
I suggest that their representation would be strong because there were 4-5 different groups representing the pro gay marriage side of that case vs one representative on the other side.

Second question:
But the groups in the court hearing didn't focus on the judge's attempt to put these things aside in determining the outcome of the trial. I realize that I should have restated this above, but in the court hearing, the case was on the powers of the supreme court, not on what biases may be present over the legality of gay marriage.

Am I to assume that you believe the No on 8 people did the best that they could?

@Flabbergasted Breakdancer: You bring up good points. I agree.

@Pockybot: Am I to assume that you believe the No on 8 people did the best that they could?

@synesthesia_death: Yeah, the Yes on 8 commercials were pretty embarrassing, myself being on the Yes on 8 side. I'm not saying that the Yes people didn't have a lot of screw ups, but they didn't seem to shoot themselves in the feet as much.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

synesthesia_death

I remember when Prop 8 was in vote, all the themes and polls here at ED somehow gave me an optimistic hope that it would approve gay marriage. I mean, I did not think the commercials of the kids with the prince/princess stories and such could have the effect of fear on people it wanted to place. The acting on them was laughable in my opinion, so the seriousness of the message for me was gone with it.

But I was wrong, and well, slightly disappointed.

Pssst. Gaia is extremely liberal compared to IRL.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

Yoshpet

Because opponents like you cannot be persuaded by these organized movements. People will have to open their minds, not their pocketbooks, before equal rights will be offered.

Yeah, you know, just like your side is *willing* to open your minds to perhaps homosexuality is wrong. You guys are hell bent on believing that homosexuality is normal and should be accepted as so. I disagree. But I dont b***h and whine about you guys not being open minded to my views.

[Yoshpet]

Torrent_Of_Octane

Yoshpet

Because opponents like you cannot be persuaded by these organized movements. People will have to open their minds, not their pocketbooks, before equal rights will be offered.

Yeah, you know, just like your side is *willing* to open your minds to perhaps homosexuality is wrong. You guys are hell bent on believing that homosexuality is normal and should be accepted as so. I disagree. But I dont b***h and whine about you guys not being open minded to my views.

There is nothing wrong with something as benign and intrinsic as my affection for another human being. Mind your own relationship, and you will find a greater peace of spirit and body.

[Amelia Hood]

Torrent_Of_Octane

synesthesia_death

I remember when Prop 8 was in vote, all the themes and polls here at ED somehow gave me an optimistic hope that it would approve gay marriage. I mean, I did not think the commercials of the kids with the prince/princess stories and such could have the effect of fear on people it wanted to place. The acting on them was laughable in my opinion, so the seriousness of the message for me was gone with it.

But I was wrong, and well, slightly disappointed.

Pssst. Gaia is extremely liberal compared to IRL.

Doesn't that depend entirely on where you live?

[M. Angel]

GunsmithKitten

Quote:

I do believe that a system similar to the one that existed and still exists in CA, which states that civil unions have the same rights and responsibilities as marriage

Hold it right there.

Civil Unions do NOT have the same rights and repsonsibilities. I can dig out a rather long list detailing it if you like.

As for religion, that's neither here nor there since there are religious figures and sects that have already stated they will spiritually recognize and sanctify same sex unions. This is all about legal benefits.

On the state level in CA they do.

California State Family Code 297.5
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=00001-01000&file=297-297.5

If you would like to dig out this list and edit it for rights that are not covered by CA law, then I would indeed like to see it. It's a part of my philosophy that any rights not covered should be the things fought for to be added to civil unions.

@MarlboroMurder: I would prefer conversation on the political head of the gay marriage movement and whether it's effective or not. I believe that it isn't and is part of the reason that the gay marriage movement is doing so poorly.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

Stygian Soleil

M. Angel

To this I point to the supreme court case that was televised. There may indeed just be a numbers disposition that caused the loss, (me being one of them), however if you watch it then you'd clearly be able to see why I say what I say.

Clearly the polls suggest that there isn't enough support. The movement shouldn't have to be fighting in the supreme court, but unfortunately it does because of rampant ignorance and bigotry.

People dont like homosexuality and the polls backs that up. We just dont want it in our government.

And one thing you got right, it shouldnt have been in the supreme courts at all. It should have been at the ballot for the people to vote.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

Sumitsu01

M. Angel

synesthesia_death

I remember when Prop 8 was in vote, all the themes and polls here at ED somehow gave me an optimistic hope that it would approve gay marriage. I mean, I did not think the commercials of the kids with the prince/princess stories and such could have the effect of fear on people it wanted to place. The acting on them was laughable in my opinion, so the seriousness of the message for me was gone with it.

But I was wrong, and well, slightly disappointed.

Does this mean you take the position opposite to mine in that the No on 8 did everything that they could?

@Sumitsu01: You bring up a good point on the deterioration of relationships in American society, however, in order for them to "have what they want" would imply a strong central political base, which I argue to be non-existent on the larger scale in terms of gay marriage. Any thoughts on this?

This is also true. The same could be said about interratial marriages as well, though I am not sure if we are hit with as much resistance as the GLBT front is. It's interesting I will say.

With that statement right there, you have a fatal assumption. You assume that homosexuality is in the same category as race, and with that you're assuming that homoseuxality is not a choice or disease or whatever other theories there are out there. You're blatently assuming that homosexuals are the same as race and requires protection like race. That is wrong.

[M. Angel]

Torrent_Of_Octane

Stygian Soleil

M. Angel

To this I point to the supreme court case that was televised. There may indeed just be a numbers disposition that caused the loss, (me being one of them), however if you watch it then you'd clearly be able to see why I say what I say.

Clearly the polls suggest that there isn't enough support. The movement shouldn't have to be fighting in the supreme court, but unfortunately it does because of rampant ignorance and bigotry.

People dont like homosexuality and the polls backs that up. We just dont want it in our government.

And one thing you got right, it shouldnt have been in the supreme courts at all. It should have been at the ballot for the people to vote.

Although I agree that it should be at the ballot for the people to vote at, what's your view on the campaign that seems to hinder it's own cause.

sweatdrop Tries to keep things on topic...

Well I need sleep guys. I'll hang around for a few more minutes, but then I need to crash.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

Yoshpet

M. Angel

But what I'm asking is that, when in the supreme court, why is the representation of the group so poor when, as you say, they shouldn't have to be fighting in the supreme court? Also, if it is due to rampant ignorance and bigotry, shouldn't that make the job of said representatives easier? With all the chips seemingly stacked in the groups favor, why couldn't they pull themselves together?

The viewpoint that opposing views are caused by ignorance and bigotry does not work objectively in that group's favor. That very viewpoint holds that there is hardly any favor in the public at all.

We must think critically.

Oh, its simply dubbed ignorance and bigotry by gay supporters. Just because the gay activists constantly spew this crap dont mean its true.

Ever thought about your opposition's view? We view homosexuals as the ignorant, rebellious ones.