Shooting to WOUND, and why you DON'T DO IT.

	100.0%	[ 26 ]
Total Votes:			[ 26 ]

[Das Rabble Rouser]

sitting cow

Das Rabble Rouser

sitting cow

Das Rabble Rouser

1. Officers are trained to aim for the center of mass for a reason.

circular argument/irrelevant statement

Quote:

It's a bigger target and easier to hit. Legs are a smaller target and harder to hit reliably especially if they're running. If you miss your target you risk your bullet damaging surrounding property or even worse hitting an innocent bystander.

what are the chances...and isn't this solved anyways by, yknow, training police to shoot accurately at limbs? which is exactly what people are saying?

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2. Shots to limbs are more likely to over penetrate. When using a gun for defense penetration is an important factor to consider. A round that can penetrate through bone can deliver severe damage to organs,

i think people understand that a person would be injured...the whole point is to prevent death....

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but too much penetration and the bullet can exit out the back and potentially hurt someone else.

you are repeating your previous point to make it seem like you have something of value to say.

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Good defense rounds can penetrate deep in the chest and if they expand properly should stay in there. The problem is that your limbs have less mass. Even if you hit the center of the limb rather than grazing it that's a lot less body material to pass through before over penetrating.and exiting the other side.

okay? your point?

Quote:

3. A shot to the leg can still be fatal. There's this thing called the femoral artery. If you sever it they will be dead before help can arrive. If they're going to die anyway might as well take the more responsible choice of shooting in the center of mass.

isn't this just really similar to point number 2? once again you repeat yourself instead of saying anything meaningful.

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4. Don't depend on a gun to hurt without killing. There are so many options out there like stun guns, tasers, pepper spray, and batons. If you don't want to kill them then don't shoot them. Less lethal options if used improperly can still kill, but they are far less likely.

no s**t

Hey why don't we just train cops to shoot for the belly button? Gut shots hurt but take an incredibly long time to kill, plenty of time in fact that they can easily get medical attention before they die! The belly button is an incredibly small target but if we just train the cops to shoot at it they will hit it consistently every time! Fast moving narrow targets are hard to hit normally and being in a stressful situation where your life is on the line doesn't make that any easier.

are you trying to be dense?

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If you can't see why overpenetration is an issue then you obviously have too little comprehension of guns to realize what works well in a defensive situation. If the bullet exits the body where does it go? It loses some energy going through the leg but like a shot that misses completely the bullet can still hit an innocent bystander.

source your claims or gtfo. i'm sick of you trotting around calling everyone dumb on anecdotal knowledge b/c you shot a gun once at camp as a kid or some s**t.

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Point 2 is about how over penetration can be a threat to innocent bystanders. Point 3 is about how it can fatally wound the target defeating the purpose of shooting to wound. You don't even need to be an expert in guns or anatomy to see that difference.

actually in point 2, you claimed that over penetration was a problem because it can severely injure the person. then in point 3 you said over penetration could severely injure a person or cause them to die. you made several claims in point 2. then repeated one in point 3.

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Yeah no s**t on point 4 so if police are armed with less lethal options why expect them to use the lethal option in a non lethal situation?

no one expects that. what are you talking about?

No sources! No sources! It's the end of the world! Fine, if it's so vital to have some sources to back up what I am saying here's some s**t to read.

Point 1 Limbs are small and fast making it easy to miss.

Quote:

“Hands and arms can be the fastest-moving body parts. For example, an average suspect can move his hand and forearm across his body to a 90-degree angle in 12/100 of a second. He can move his hand from his hip to shoulder height in 18/100 of a second.

“The average officer pulling the trigger as fast as he can on a Glock, one of the fastest- cycling semi-autos, requires 1/4 second to discharge each round.

“There is no way an officer can react, track, shoot and reliably hit a threatening suspect’s forearm or a weapon in a suspect’s hand in the time spans involved.

“Even if the suspect held his weapon arm steady for half a second or more, an accurate hit would be highly unlikely, and in police shootings the suspect and his weapon are seldom stationary. Plus, the officer himself may be moving as he shoots.

Point 2 The first 45 seconds explain his test. His ballistics gel is calibrated to FBI standards and the denim he uses is IWBA standard. At the 2 minute mark he begins talking about the penetration of the test rounds noting that two bullets over penetrated. Standard penetration can interrupt the vital organs. Over penetration can exit the body. I may not have been very clear that organ damage can happen with standard penetration, but I thought I was clear about over penetration hurting innocent bystanders. The OP originally states that.

Point 3 has nothing to do with over penetration. It never did.

More information on the femoral artery If it's nicked it can take longer for you to bleed out but if completely severed you can bleed out in a matter of minutes. It can take a while for an ambulance to show up so time really isn't on your side.

On point 4 if nobody at all expects police to use a lethal tool in a non lethal situation then nobody would ever say you should just shoot to wound.

[Das Rabble Rouser]

Tackle and Tickle

Sean D`Blue

Das Rabble Rouser

In the wake of Officer Wilson's hearing a lot of people who think they know about how to shoot are swearing you should shoot to wound. Specifically I keep hearing about shooting people in the legs. This is stupid and if you believe this then you are stupid.

1. Officers are trained to aim for the center of mass for a reason. It's a bigger target and easier to hit. Legs are a smaller target and harder to hit reliably especially if they're running. If you miss your target you risk your bullet damaging surrounding property or even worse hitting an innocent bystander.

True they are trained to shoot at the torso. Mainly not because it is easier which it is, but because when you fire a gun you are not trying to injure the person but kill them. If you where just trying to stop them there are other methods to do that. That does not mean that most people would not live if shot as unless it hits a important organ a person can live if help arrives on time.

2. A shot to the leg can still be fatal. There's this thing called the femoral artery. If you sever it they will be dead before help can arrive. If they're going to die anyway might as well take the more responsible choice of shooting in the center of mass.

False. It all depends on how far away the help is.

3. Don't depend on a gun to hurt without killing. There are so many options out there like stun guns, tasers, pepper spray, and batons. If you don't want to kill them then don't shoot them. Less lethal options if used improperly can still kill, but they are far less likely.

Less lethal option even used properly can still kill. A gun can hurt a person without killing them as one option that a gun can be turned into a make shift club. When using a gun you do not use it to wound but use it to kill it is what it was made to do.

You could be right, or probably not. I've never shot a gun or researched about a gun so I wouldn't know. I don't think I'd would take life or death situation advice on gaia though, to be honest. You'd probably want to include links that supports information like this if you want it taken seriously...

I shot weapons and was trained to use it to kill people, he is mostly right the only thing he was wrong about was mainly #2 it if help is very close it is survivable.

I guess it doesn't kill every time but it kills quickly so you have to get help fast. Someone on scene able to slow the bleeding can help buy some time but if it's completely severed you only have a few minutes before you bleed out.

[Tackle and Tickle]

Das Rabble Rouser

Tackle and Tickle

Sean D`Blue

Das Rabble Rouser

In the wake of Officer Wilson's hearing a lot of people who think they know about how to shoot are swearing you should shoot to wound. Specifically I keep hearing about shooting people in the legs. This is stupid and if you believe this then you are stupid.

1. Officers are trained to aim for the center of mass for a reason. It's a bigger target and easier to hit. Legs are a smaller target and harder to hit reliably especially if they're running. If you miss your target you risk your bullet damaging surrounding property or even worse hitting an innocent bystander.

True they are trained to shoot at the torso. Mainly not because it is easier which it is, but because when you fire a gun you are not trying to injure the person but kill them. If you where just trying to stop them there are other methods to do that. That does not mean that most people would not live if shot as unless it hits a important organ a person can live if help arrives on time.

2. A shot to the leg can still be fatal. There's this thing called the femoral artery. If you sever it they will be dead before help can arrive. If they're going to die anyway might as well take the more responsible choice of shooting in the center of mass.

False. It all depends on how far away the help is.

3. Don't depend on a gun to hurt without killing. There are so many options out there like stun guns, tasers, pepper spray, and batons. If you don't want to kill them then don't shoot them. Less lethal options if used improperly can still kill, but they are far less likely.

Less lethal option even used properly can still kill. A gun can hurt a person without killing them as one option that a gun can be turned into a make shift club. When using a gun you do not use it to wound but use it to kill it is what it was made to do.

You could be right, or probably not. I've never shot a gun or researched about a gun so I wouldn't know. I don't think I'd would take life or death situation advice on gaia though, to be honest. You'd probably want to include links that supports information like this if you want it taken seriously...

I shot weapons and was trained to use it to kill people, he is mostly right the only thing he was wrong about was mainly #2 it if help is very close it is survivable.

I guess it doesn't kill every time but it kills quickly so you have to get help fast. Someone on scene able to slow the bleeding can help buy some time but if it's completely severed you only have a few minutes before you bleed out.

True. The only method I know is to use a tourniquet to cut off blood flow if done right they may even keep the leg and regain use of it after surgery.

[Pipebracket]

Tackle and Tickle

Das Rabble Rouser

Tackle and Tickle

Sean D`Blue

Das Rabble Rouser

In the wake of Officer Wilson's hearing a lot of people who think they know about how to shoot are swearing you should shoot to wound. Specifically I keep hearing about shooting people in the legs. This is stupid and if you believe this then you are stupid.

1. Officers are trained to aim for the center of mass for a reason. It's a bigger target and easier to hit. Legs are a smaller target and harder to hit reliably especially if they're running. If you miss your target you risk your bullet damaging surrounding property or even worse hitting an innocent bystander.

True they are trained to shoot at the torso. Mainly not because it is easier which it is, but because when you fire a gun you are not trying to injure the person but kill them. If you where just trying to stop them there are other methods to do that. That does not mean that most people would not live if shot as unless it hits a important organ a person can live if help arrives on time.

2. A shot to the leg can still be fatal. There's this thing called the femoral artery. If you sever it they will be dead before help can arrive. If they're going to die anyway might as well take the more responsible choice of shooting in the center of mass.

False. It all depends on how far away the help is.

3. Don't depend on a gun to hurt without killing. There are so many options out there like stun guns, tasers, pepper spray, and batons. If you don't want to kill them then don't shoot them. Less lethal options if used improperly can still kill, but they are far less likely.

Less lethal option even used properly can still kill. A gun can hurt a person without killing them as one option that a gun can be turned into a make shift club. When using a gun you do not use it to wound but use it to kill it is what it was made to do.

You could be right, or probably not. I've never shot a gun or researched about a gun so I wouldn't know. I don't think I'd would take life or death situation advice on gaia though, to be honest. You'd probably want to include links that supports information like this if you want it taken seriously...

I shot weapons and was trained to use it to kill people, he is mostly right the only thing he was wrong about was mainly #2 it if help is very close it is survivable.

I guess it doesn't kill every time but it kills quickly so you have to get help fast. Someone on scene able to slow the bleeding can help buy some time but if it's completely severed you only have a few minutes before you bleed out.

True. The only method I know is to use a tourniquet to cut off blood flow if done right they may even keep the leg and regain use of it after surgery.

what's your MOS bro?

[Marquessa_De_SadeFW]

Because this stupidity is still continueing. Ill give an example.
http://reverbpress.com/news/white-man-pulls-gun-on-cop/

Please note a quote from a police officer...

Quote:

“I immediately ducked in my patrol car and accelerated continuing northbound, fearing that it was a weapon. Based on training and experience, I have seen handguns in many shapes and colors and perceived this to be a handgun.”

ANYONE saying police are not trained to avoid violent or lethal conflict is talking utter s**t.

It is part of the basic training for officers due to the fact "innocent civies" may be injured or killed.

That link is to an article showing the difference between a white man armed, threatening officers and what has been happening with anything other then whites.
Another quote from the article

Quote:

For example, at the very end of November in Missouri, the state where the shooting of Michael Brown took place, Demario Hendrix, an African American male, pulled a gun on police during a traffic stop. Officers knocked the weapon from the man’s hand and arrested him.

It goes on to explain not all african americans get killed. BUT there is a (provably) higher rate of death and "knee jerk" shootings of african americans then whites.

Its about the fact that police believe themselves above the law, have no regard for what their job actually is and the corruption is now like a spreading cancer.

There are "good" officers...but they loose that title the moment they do not step up to the place and speak up and do something about the "bad" ones.

[Pipebracket]

Marquessa_De_Sade

Because this stupidity is still continueing. Ill give an example.
http://reverbpress.com/news/white-man-pulls-gun-on-cop/

Please note a quote from a police officer...

Quote:

“I immediately ducked in my patrol car and accelerated continuing northbound, fearing that it was a weapon. Based on training and experience, I have seen handguns in many shapes and colors and perceived this to be a handgun.”

ANYONE saying police are not trained to avoid violent or lethal conflict is talking utter s**t.

It is part of the basic training for officers due to the fact "innocent civies" may be injured or killed.

That link is to an article showing the difference between a white man armed, threatening officers and what has been happening with anything other then whites.
Another quote from the article

Quote:

For example, at the very end of November in Missouri, the state where the shooting of Michael Brown took place, Demario Hendrix, an African American male, pulled a gun on police during a traffic stop. Officers knocked the weapon from the man’s hand and arrested him.

It goes on to explain not all african americans get killed. BUT there is a (provably) higher rate of death and "knee jerk" shootings of african americans then whites.

Its about the fact that police believe themselves above the law, have no regard for what their job actually is and the corruption is now like a spreading cancer.

There are "good" officers...but they loose that title the moment they do not step up to the place and speak up and do something about the "bad" ones.

I'd actually seen something that said more whites are killed per arrest than blacks.