School Uniforms. warning wall of text.

[The FDA]

Lemon Scented Teacup

The FDA

Lemon Scented Teacup

Your school still had guidelines though. I went to a school with no rules regarding clothing and kids went crazy. It may be harder for a school to make the uniforms rule or a guideline rule but if they keep it up eventually most kids come around and realise that in the real world you need to dress proffestionally in places like schools and you can wear your party clothes at parties. I really think uniforms help in giving kids that kind of mindset, I know it helped a lot of the kids I went to school with.

I thought you said your school had no rules about clothing?

Sorry, I didn't really explain myself. I went to a private school in elemtary shcool then I went a public middle school and then I went back to a private school. THe thing I noticed was when people came to the private schools from public school they had some rough spots in the beging but then they eventually got what the uniform was for. I also saw that when people made the transition with me from private to public that we were dressed a lot more practically, like we were coming there to learn and not to party with friends.

Oh OK, I sort of suspected something like that but I didn't want to assume anything. That's great that it worked out for you guys, but when I was in school, they proposed uniforms one year, ad they were just awful. Khaki penguin-pants (you know, tapered at the hem), tucked in polo shirts, Mr. Rogers cardigans, it was bad. I wore the exact same uniform when I worked in fast food. I don't see how that could make anyone feel scholarly or "professional". It's almost like the school was trying to get us used to a fast food uniform.

[merixthexninja]

shureloche

Teki

Let’s start with the cost. It has cost my mom more this semester in "Uniform" school clothes than any other year in any of the lives of me and my two siblings. Now at first I thought this was just us, because my sister got brand name polo's etc. So I talked to some other parents who have children attending my sister’s school all of which told me the same thing. That it cost them a small fortune.

Actually, considering the cost of clothing in stores, and having to have all sorts of different clothes to match I dont see uniforms cost being a factor as you do not need to buy nearly as much to accomplish the same thing. Also, depending on the uniform they are often better manufactured and able to stand up to wear and tear. Would you like me to post an actual cost comparison between the uniform clothing of some popular uniform providers and the cost of clothing in stores in the mall?

The people who can afford to shop at stores in the mall don't have to worry about not being able to afford uniforms. "do not need to buy nearly as much to accomplish the same thing" What are you talking about, there? Less clothing needed per outfit, or less outfits total? Both are wrong, by the way.

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Teki

I also believe kids should be able to choose what they wear and express themselves through their clothing (with in reason of course I don’t think kids should go to school naked or anything). Kids have everything chosen for them from when the go to bed to what they eat the least we can do is allowing them to pick out what shirt they wear each morning.

Are you an artist? I don't think so. Normally when we let children express themselves 90% of it is complete and utter crap. Really, what parts are you wanting to express? Could it be your tits, a**, legs, or whatever else you are going to expose when you go out and dress up as your favorite hollywood bimbo. When you let boys express themselves you normally get curse words and dumb a** porn drawings. OK, so maybe omne or two actual artists are in your school. They can go express themselves in many ways including art class, music, literature, drama club,. and all sorts of other ways people who actually want to express themselves in a worthwhile fasion express themselves. The fact that you cant wear a dental floss skirt and some pasties to school isn't hindering your expression. Some day you will be able to get your own pimp, get knocked up, and whore yourself out. Just maybe you will haqve a high school diploma when you do it.

So everyone who expresses themself through clothing is a whore? Wow, that's right up there with pro-lifers stating anyone who gets an abortion is promiscuous.

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Teki

Lastly kids make fun of each other it’s a fact of life. When you put all the kids in the same clothing they no longer can make fun of the shirt or shorts you wear, so they will turn to more permanent things like your nose, freckles, weight, size of feet, teeth just about anything. Kid can change the kinds of clothes they wear; they can’t change their nose (at least not without costly surgery). I also think that uniforms lower self esteem. When I'm in my work uniform I certainly don't feel good about myself. When I'm in my street clothes thinking I look cute or whatever my self esteem is much higher. I can’t see it being different for a child.

Oh, so you want kids to be able to make fun of this oh so important self expression you were talking about a point ago? Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Like you said kids are going to make fun no matter what so the point is irrelevant. At least this way the people who make fun of you will have to do it in a dorky school uniform. See, there is a bright side to everything.

Isn't a major selling point of having uniforms so kids can't make fun of each other? Teki sunk your battleship.

[Elendinel]

Spatterdash

I think the cost point is the biggest count against uniform. But uniform isn't inherently expensive. Many schools, at least in the UK, have uniform requirements of a sweater and polo shirt that don't cost much more than non-uniform equivalents, or have a dress code involving items which can be bought cheaply from major supermarkets.

The problem is dress clothing (in general) usually costs more than simple jeans and a t-shirt. Even if we assume that the school doesn't require kids to get their uniforms from a specific company (those being sources of the most expensive uniforms, usually), the students will still have to buy some form of formal attire, and formal attire is almost always more expensive than inexpensive casual attire.

Now if we compare casual shirts from Abercrombie to a uniform then obviously there's no big difference between the casual Abercrombie shirt and a formal shirt bought at, say, the Gap. But when we talk about affordability we really refer to (or at least ought to refer to) the kids who can't afford Abercrombie, the kids who can't get normal clothes at the Gap, who have to pay a max of $3 for a shirt at a thrift store or something, and maybe $10 for a pair of pants, IF they're lucky. Those kids. Where are they going to get quality formal attire that matches the school's uniform? Who's going to pay for those clothes? And when the kid's probably going to have to pay for cheap clothing just in order to get ONE uniform set, what happens when that uniform gets worn to the point where it's nigh distinguishable from the formal attire it once was? Who pays for the new one?

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I personally kind of liked wearing uniform because of the sense of belonging and professionalism it gave me. It creates identity, of a sort, if you all look vaguely similar. And I still think that there are far better ways to express one's personality than appearance - I don't accept the individuality argument at all, because it's such a shallow attitude to expressing oneself. Not that it's bad to express yourself via one's appearance, but it's pathetic to rely on it. Especially since, given the choice, teenagers tend to dress like their friends and adopt 'uniform' to fit in with their preferred social group.

I wasn't arguing that students deserve to dress as individuals because they ought to be able to express themselves, so much as if you're going to compare school uniforms to the professional world, then you ought to compare them equivalently.

As for individuality, part of learning about the real world is experimentation. Kids ought to have the experience of having the freedom to choose how they get dressed to please an audience, cause they'll have to do that exact same thing when they grow up (albeit sometimes in a more formal manner, depending on the job). They ought to have the experience of learning how much clothing can affect social status, how certain clothing can personify certain images or stereotypes, etc. And what better way to experience that than in school, where people scrutinize each other more often than they do outside of class, and where it reflects the sort of mentality that one may see even in the workplace?

Also, who dresses up like their friends depends on the personality of the person and varies. When I finally went to public school I found more variety in the sorts of clothing people wore than I encountered outside of class in my private school years. Very rarely did two friends own the same shirt, never mind the same outfit, etc. Some teenagers follow style like sheep, but not all are as mindless.

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I can see why it's resented, but I really don't think it's exactly something one suffers through. Asides from the affordability issue, it's not damaging.

Not damaging, but it doesn't help anything either. So what exactly would be the point in spending extra money to enforce that kind of policy?

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And it's useful from the point of view of teachers and adults in that you can immediately tell which pupils are yours when it comes to school outings, etcetera.

Our schools don't have a lot of school outings, cause of the number of kids enrolled in the average public school. And cause travel's expensive. That sort of thing could easily be remedied with bright-colored armbands or nametags, anyway.

[Sanguvixen]

I went to a Uniform school for one year.

All I can say is, that out of all the schools I've ever been to (my family was a military family so we moved around a lot), that particular one had the worst behavior problems, the lowest test scores, and the most problems in general.

I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transfered into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

[Elendinel]

shureloche

Actually, considering the cost of clothing in stores, and having to have all sorts of different clothes to match I dont see uniforms cost being a factor as you do not need to buy nearly as much to accomplish the same thing. Also, depending on the uniform they are often better manufactured and able to stand up to wear and tear. Would you like me to post an actual cost comparison between the uniform clothing of some popular uniform providers and the cost of clothing in stores in the mall?

What about those who don't get their clothes in the mall? Are those uniform providers cheaper than the Salvation Army? stare

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Are you an artist? I don't think so. Normally when we let children express themselves 90% of it is complete and utter crap. Really, what parts are you wanting to express? Could it be your tits, a**, legs, or whatever else you are going to expose when you go out and dress up as your favorite hollywood bimbo. When you let boys express themselves you normally get curse words and dumb a** porn drawings. OK, so maybe omne or two actual artists are in your school. They can go express themselves in many ways including art class, music, literature, drama club,. and all sorts of other ways people who actually want to express themselves in a worthwhile fasion express themselves. The fact that you cant wear a dental floss skirt and some pasties to school isn't hindering your expression. Some day you will be able to get your own pimp, get knocked up, and whore yourself out. Just maybe you will haqve a high school diploma when you do it.

Cool, so people are only expressing themselves if they dress like sluts or gangsters. The kids wearing normal jeans and normal t-shirts aren't trying to express their style at all. That's great to know.

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Like you said kids are going to make fun no matter what so the point is irrelevant. At least this way the people who make fun of you will have to do it in a dorky school uniform.

Are you trying to suggest that when bullies tease and harass other students while wearing uniforms, it's not so bad as it'd be if the bullies were in casual clothing? Just trying to understand this incredible deduction, here.

[Lemon Scented Teacup]

The FDA

Lemon Scented Teacup

The FDA

Lemon Scented Teacup

Your school still had guidelines though. I went to a school with no rules regarding clothing and kids went crazy. It may be harder for a school to make the uniforms rule or a guideline rule but if they keep it up eventually most kids come around and realise that in the real world you need to dress proffestionally in places like schools and you can wear your party clothes at parties. I really think uniforms help in giving kids that kind of mindset, I know it helped a lot of the kids I went to school with.

I thought you said your school had no rules about clothing?

Sorry, I didn't really explain myself. I went to a private school in elemtary shcool then I went a public middle school and then I went back to a private school. THe thing I noticed was when people came to the private schools from public school they had some rough spots in the beging but then they eventually got what the uniform was for. I also saw that when people made the transition with me from private to public that we were dressed a lot more practically, like we were coming there to learn and not to party with friends.

Oh OK, I sort of suspected something like that but I didn't want to assume anything. That's great that it worked out for you guys, but when I was in school, they proposed uniforms one year, ad they were just awful. Khaki penguin-pants (you know, tapered at the hem), tucked in polo shirts, Mr. Rogers cardigans, it was bad. I wore the exact same uniform when I worked in fast food. I don't see how that could make anyone feel scholarly or "professional". It's almost like the school was trying to get us used to a fast food uniform.

Ew. (I'm sorry that must seem very childish but it's the truth)
But I get were your coming from now, I've never had to suffer through that kind of stuff, that is not the case is most other countries so I supose this disscussion should be seperated into uniforms in the USA and uniforms in the rest of the world.

Maybe, the British or Canadian uniforms stores/providers should move to the States or have the students or parents come to together to select a unifrom style from another country .

[Blind Guardian the 2nd]

Sanguvixen

I went to a Uniform school for one year.

All I can say is, that out of all the schools I've ever been to (my family was a military family so we moved around a lot), that particular one had the worst behavior problems, the lowest test scores, and the most problems in general.

I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transfered into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

Having worn a uniform for 14 years of my life, I have to say that saying a school's problems being uniform related are completely baseless. If that were the case, the education system in England would be worse than America. Which it just plainly isn't.

The social problems they'd run into would have nothing to do with a lack of uniform. If that were true, I'd be lost and scared once I got to Uni and started to wear my own clothes every day.

British schools have rivalries which are exacerbated by uniforms, this I will admit. But they never really result in more than name calling, and bloodied noses at the worst.

If a bully wasn't inventive enough to pick on something other than your clothes, they're a sub par bully. Wearing your own clothes don't create a protective barrier between you and a bully. If a bully wants to be cruel and inventive, they will do so regardless of your attire.

Uniforms don't socially confuse anyone. I'm sorry, I like you and all, but the argument that uniforms = social retardation is idiotic, considering your sample is.... one school. Whose problems are undoubtedly unrelated to the uniforms.

[Fury of Jude]

Sanguvixen

I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transfered into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

No one I know has had ANY of these problems.
The first one only applies if you wear the uniform EVERYWHERE. There is a weekend and summer, among other things, that you learn this stuff from.
The second means you lived in a bad neighborhood, but maybe you shouldn't have run. Learning to stick up for yourself is a good thing to learn.
I've never had this happen. "You have to wear a uniform" "I have a 48% greater chance of going to college" "...."
Once again, NEVER happened.

[The FDA]

Lemon Scented Teacup

Ew. (I'm sorry that must seem very childish but it's the truth)
But I get were your coming from now, I've never had to suffer through that kind of stuff, that is not the case is most other countries so I supose this disscussion should be seperated into uniforms in the USA and uniforms in the rest of the world.

Maybe, the British or Canadian uniforms stores/providers should move to the States or have the students or parents come to together to select a unifrom style from another country .

No, it is true. But that's what all the American uniforms I've seen look like. English uniforms do look pretty nice, in fact I wanted to buy one when I was in the UK because I thought they looked so nice. But I don't really see a need or them. And since enforcing uniforms takes more money and effort than not, and having them doesn't really solve anything, I wouldn't support it. Maybe for private schools, but ordinary public schools? Personally I would feel like I was owned by the gov't or something.

[Elendinel]

HehFire

Sanguvixen

I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transfered into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

No one I know has had ANY of these problems.
The first one only applies if you wear the uniform EVERYWHERE. There is a weekend and summer, among other things, that you learn this stuff from.
The second means you lived in a bad neighborhood, but maybe you shouldn't have run. Learning to stick up for yourself is a good thing to learn.
I've never had this happen. "You have to wear a uniform" "I have a 48% greater chance of going to college" "...."
Once again, NEVER happened.

Although it brings up an important point, namely that people react to uniforms differently. Thus expecting an entire school to get its act in gear cause it's in uniforms is a bit flawed. They may, they may not, and that would depend on the types of students one is dealing with. To compare one school who had uniforms to one who didn't is useless unless you can prove that both sets of students were exactly the same in demeanor or held similar personalities prior to entering the separate schools.

On a more general note, generally uniforms are only part of a wide variety of things schools try to do in order to suppress chaos, so they clearly can't be --the-- thing that will solve behavioral problems in schools. Not only this, but the conditions that cause students to act in a way that make teachers want to institute uniforms don't disappear when the students are forced to wear the uniforms. Those problems, whatever they may be, are still prevalent in society, even when kids are wearing their Polo shirts or khaki dress pants. So uniforms themselves aren't really affecting these problems, nor can they necessarily suppress them, depending on the nature of the student body; why then would they ever be necessary?

[SmokyWater500]

SCHOOL UNIFORMS SUCK BCUZ THEY SORT OF SAY THAT WE HAV NO FREE WILL IN SCHOOL

[aisebon]

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I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transfered into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Funny that. In the UK, almost all schools have uniforms. Colleges don't,yet people don't go batshit insane in year 12.

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Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Rivalry between schools happens when all schools have uniforms, no schools have uniforms and when only some schools have uniforms. It happens. It's not because of the uniform, or lack thereof.

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Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

That happens if there are no uniforms. It's just a different flavour of the same thing.

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Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

Socially confused? You're kidding, right? What do they do at uniform schools in your country, beat them?


It's really up to the school. There are pros and cons to both, but switching from one system to another solves no problems whatsoever. It merely changes the way these problems arise- because kids are idiots. If uniforms really bother you that much, just don't go to a uniformed school. But there are no real downsides or upsides either way that make it the better/worse option.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

I support the wide-scale institution of School Uniforms, at least in Middle and High Schools. I find that they support a more professional environment, and they do eliminate the social divisions that exist simply because of clothing.

As for the issue of cost, I would like to make the following statement: A properly funded public school system is supposed to provide ALL required school materials to ALL students regardless of the individual student's financial resources. If a uniform is mandatory, then a reasonable number of complete uniforms, say one for each day in a typical school week, would be considered required materials and should be provided by the School System. Any public school system that cannot support to provide uniforms to its students while still offer a quality education at no out of pocket charge to students and their parents should not make uniforms mandatory.

[Kyotogero]

I think uniforms are a thing you get used to anyway, and probably wouldn't be that big a deal in 3 weeks.

[Sanguvixen]

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Sanguvixen

I went to a Uniform school for one year.

All I can say is, that out of all the schools I've ever been to (my family was a military family so we moved around a lot), that particular one had the worst behavior problems, the lowest test scores, and the most problems in general.

I can also say that kids who went to that school (middle school) ended up with social problems later on when they transferred into High-School, where there was no general dress-code.

Uniforms, at least in my experience don't solve problems....they just create new ones. When you get chased down the street, into a tree because some other school kid (from a non-uniform school) saw you walking home and wearing the school uniform, you might understand.

Or if you have to experience the bizarre and cruel ways bullies came up with to tease and harass you when clothes arn't an option, you'd understand too.

Or maybe if you watched group after group coming into your high-school from a uniform school, messed up, socially confused and so forth, over and over again, you might understand too.

Having worn a uniform for 14 years of my life, I have to say that saying a school's problems being uniform related are completely baseless. If that were the case, the education system in England would be worse than America. Which it just plainly isn't.

The social problems they'd run into would have nothing to do with a lack of uniform. If that were true, I'd be lost and scared once I got to Uni and started to wear my own clothes every day.

British schools have rivalries which are exacerbated by uniforms, this I will admit. But they never really result in more than name calling, and bloodied noses at the worst.

If a bully wasn't inventive enough to pick on something other than your clothes, they're a sub par bully. Wearing your own clothes don't create a protective barrier between you and a bully. If a bully wants to be cruel and inventive, they will do so regardless of your attire.

Uniforms don't socially confuse anyone. I'm sorry, I like you and all, but the argument that uniforms = social retardation is idiotic, considering your sample is.... one school. Whose problems are undoubtedly unrelated to the uniforms.

My argument is not completely baseless. Unlike British School systems, the American School systems don't handle Uniforms well. Typically, in at least some schools, teachers, deans, and security guards take a Uniform School and treat it like a prison.

Further more, when only a handful of schools in an area, or even just one has a Uniform policy, and the other schools don't you end up with the kinds of problems I highlighted in my first post. Students who go to these uniform schools are singled out by kids who don't, and it can range from extreme forms of bullying, to being beaten up, or chased down on a regular basis.

The particular one I went to was ever more horrible due to the fact that it had a call in number where the general public was invited to tattle on individual students walking to or from school, with their uniform off, such as a shirt not tucked in, or something similar. That led to local teenagers calling in bogus reports to get kids in trouble, particularly siblings of teenagers that some teens didn't like.

The School always took the word of an anonymous caller over the word of a student. There is nothing quite like doing nothing wrong, and then being called into the office, and being handed a Detention because some anonymous caller called in a fake report, saying that you didn't have your shirt tucked in when you were walking home from school.

Uniforms don't work, if only one school does it. If the entire group of schools in an area were to do the uniform thing, I suppose you would get better results. But that is not the case in my area. Because there are only 3, in the entire area, and cities near by, Uniforms create more problems than they solve.