School Shootings: Is it really media?

[Pwn3r_F0x]

crescentstarmoonrise

The Columbine dipshits were actually popular guys who listened to normal music and weren't at all dark in their tastes in entertainment, but they did play with weapons and build bombs together as a hobby. Sociopaths often are socially acceptable people who are known for their abundant charisma in the social spectrum.

Are we going to blame zombie films for the Canadian guy who ate brains on a bus a couple years back?
O_O

Columbine shooters were by no means popular but in fact were normal kids. Average social settings. I didn't read about weapon playing but if that is the case most all kids who hunt will do a school shooting. The whole media influence is that it would desensitize people into not caring about life or death.

[treasure09]

As for question one and three, I'm pretty sure that most people in high school are old enough not to be that influenced by video games and other people's music. I think that what they did was a result of bullying, and they would have done it no matter what video games they did or didn't play or what music they listened to. As for the goth thing, I don't know much about that. But I would hope that people wouldn't be so easily influenced to do something that drastic.

[Grungekitty]

treasure09

As for question one and three, I'm pretty sure that most people in high school are old enough not to be that influenced by video games and other people's music. I think that what they did was a result of bullying, and they would have done it no matter what video games they did or didn't play or what music they listened to. As for the goth thing, I don't know much about that. But I would hope that people wouldn't be so easily influenced to do something that drastic.

The culture of the English public school is built upon bullying. (What are the traditions of the public school? Rum, sodomy and the lash.) Could you please link to a few examples of schoolyard shootings in, say, Eton ?

Goth music is not generally school based. But, could you point to a few shootings on the goth scene of Oslo or Manchester or Hamburg ?

I'm still of the opinion that easily available guns are a major factor.

[Yami no Hitokiri]

School shootings occur because school is a hellish, prison-like environment that brings out the worst in people.

[Grungekitty]

Yami no Hitokiri

School shootings occur because school is a hellish, prison-like environment that brings out the worst in people.

C.f Tom Brown's Schooldays. Did Tom Brown gun down Flashman? Nope.

Is the whole of the USA a 'hellish prison-like environment'?
If not, why do you suppose it has three times the amount of murders as (famously dull) Belgium ?

[AxeSlayerMiyavi]

pulchritudinous soup

Question 1: Do you think that video games greatly influence adolescents to become violent to such a degree that they would, literally, shoot and kill others for their own benefit?

Actually any kind of entertainment that show violence or conflict, even if said conflict is resolved in the end, raises instances in violence in children. Children simply doen't have the reasoning capabilities to understand and process conflict resolution, but they pick up readily the violence. So it's kinda unfair to pick on video games when there are many other sources of entertainment that are bad for children.

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Question 2: Is the Gothic trend worthy of blame?

This is unrelated. Most goths are introverts and the least likely to lash out on others. They also quite enjoy their status as outliers and won't bother anyone outside of their subgroup. You must be thinking of emos who are the ones wallowing in self-pity and are the easiest targets for bullies. I imagine that they could be spending their time concocting grand schemes of school violence.

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Question 3: Was it appropriate to blame Marilyn Manson? Can music influence someone to do something as violent as this?

Of course not. People do bad things, not music. Marilyn Manson is an entertainer. His music is meant for the enjoyment of listening to it. Now if someone puts it on him or herself to let the music shape their worldview, there is no reason to say that he had a hand in it. Hell, he doesn't even know who these kids are and if one kid blows away another because of something he's listening to, then that makes the other kids who listen to the same music, a risk to their own schools, even though they have not shown the preponderance of violence?

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Which is responsible?

The media?

Or

The bullying?

The kids are responsible. We are all responsible for every action we take everyday. We are free-will agents capable of using our reasoning skills to make very important decisions in our lives. Insanity is not even a defense. If you have had a lapse of judgement for even a split second, that is no one or nothing else's fault other than your own. There are no outside mechansism turning our neural gears.

[fireyhope]

Grungekitty

Yami no Hitokiri

School shootings occur because school is a hellish, prison-like environment that brings out the worst in people.

C.f Tom Brown's Schooldays. Did Tom Brown gun down Flashman? Nope.

Is the whole of the USA a 'hellish prison-like environment'?
If not, why do you suppose it has three times the amount of murders as (famously dull) Belgium ?

school system is terrible. U.S. people can attain guns illegally much easier then most states. Did i mention our terrible school system? oh and terrible parenting.

[Grungekitty]

AxeSlayerMiyavi

The kids are responsible. We are all responsible for every action we take everyday. We are free-will agents capable of using our reasoning skills to make very important decisions in our lives. Insanity is not even a defense. If you have had a lapse of judgement for even a split second, that is no one or nothing else's fault other than your own. There are no outside mechansism turning our neural gears.

That's a profoundly bleak and simultaneously uninteresting statement.

If you get drunk, you did the getting drunk and so are still responsible for your actions.
If you get drunk, fall unconscious and get robbed, that's still your fault: right?
If the barman slipped you a mickey so you fall unconscious after two beers - hey, you should have noticed, you're a free-will agent with the same sensory equipment as everyone else.
If you wake up on a whaler, outward bound on a three year cruise, that's still your fault, because you chose to buy that beer.
And when you come back, you should be sued for breach of contract by your employer.

Did I exaggerate your sentiments a teensy bit there ? Actually, I don't think I did.

For according to you: 'Insanity is not even a defense'.

Now, on the other hand, I aspire to rationality and attempt to treat everyone around me as being rational for as long as possible. But I know that its an aspiration that is never fully realised.

I say that you are a product of your upbringing and your surroundings. The choices you make are bounded by the stuff you are given, the skills you are taught, the ideas you have picked out and assembled from those presented to you.

I don't believe that a person with mental disability should be held to a contract.
I don't believe that a child should face an adult court.
I flatly don't believe that a pupil can carry out a school yard shooting unless he acts within a culture that has too many bloody guns and places too low a value on human life.

[pulchritudinous soup]

I do not advocate the quotes that I decided to post. I am simply questioning motives and as to why anyone would believe that media is a greater influence than your peers. I'm interested in the thoughts of those who differentiate from my point of view. If you haven't figured it out yet, I do not believe that media is a cause of school shootings. Nor do I believe that a certain trend or music genre can convince their supporters to hate and, eventually, kill everyone associated in their life. Their has been psychoanalytic reports that suggest "media" is at fault. I do not disagree, fully. I'm not saying that media did not help, but it should not be the primary blame.

However, I must enforce:

Being a Goth and listening to heavy metal, or whatever, is irrelevant. Playing video games is, also, irrelevant.

The media is partially at fault because they enable us to use guns. I do mean the internet and how minors can obtain rifles. It does not mean that the influence is commercial, but resources provided in this day and age can be easily manipulated. Perhaps, stricter gun laws should be reconsidered?

Personally, banning certain forms of entertainment is idiotic. Though, we are quite the gun-crazed generation, aren't we? It used to be tobacco and now it's shooting lead. Great...

[Overexposure]

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Question 1: Do you think that video games greatly influence adolescents to become violent to such a degree that they would, literally, shoot and kill others for their own benefit?

I would think that the person would choose games he liked, not necessarily play games and become something else. So someone with violent tendencies would choose violent games and when other factors pushed him across the line, the game gets the blame.

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Question 2: Is the Gothic trend worthy of blame?

The Goth culture had nothing to do with it. Harris and Klebold were friends with people in the "Trenchcoat Mafia" but were not considered to be in it. Many of the members had even graduated the year before. They wore trench coats that day to hide their guns. It's just more media pandering attempting to blame a tragic event on anything so that it has some kind of sense to it.#2

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Question 3: Was it appropriate to blame Marilyn Manson? Can music influence someone to do something as violent as this?

Unless Marilyn Manson (and Rammstein) use massive amounts of subliminal messages in their music instructing you to kill everyone, I don't think they're to blame. I listen to both of those bands and have yet to build multiple bombs with the intent to kill everyone in the building and wander down hallways killing people at random.
They also hated Manson. #5

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Which is responsible?

The media?

Or

The bullying?

You CAN be within the middle. Reasoning is encouraged.

I would say neither of those are responsible.

Harris and Klebold spent over a year planning Columbine. School shooters tend to snap and act impulsively targeting whatever pushed them over the edge.4th Paragraph

They built two giant propane bombs with the intention of killing everybody. Even their friends. I would say nobody was to blame for this, that H&K were quite simply, crazy. They deceived everyone for years as to their intentions and had every appearance of growing up and being successful in life right up to April 20th.

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Rules of Fabulous Debate

1. State your position.
2. Provide sources to support your claim.
3. Direct insult to an individual is prohibited.

Overall, I would say Harris was responsible for the massacre and that Klebold was just a nutter who had the poor timing to fall in with an even crazier lunatic with a superiority complex. If either one of these two had been sane, they would have turned the other in. There was far too much time and complexity involved in the planning for it to have been the work of anything other than a psychopath. The only fault I can find is that when their website was initially discovered it wasn't followed up on as it should have been. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that.

It's easier to try and blame video games or "that garbage they listen to" than it is to admit that both of these boys were insane and quite probably, beyond help.

Links I used-
Columbine History
Slate - Dave Cullen
Columbine MythsMore Myths
I only skimmed this one a bit

[Princess Z-M]

Pwn3r_F0x

crescentstarmoonrise

The Columbine dipshits were actually popular guys who listened to normal music and weren't at all dark in their tastes in entertainment, but they did play with weapons and build bombs together as a hobby. Sociopaths often are socially acceptable people who are known for their abundant charisma in the social spectrum.

Are we going to blame zombie films for the Canadian guy who ate brains on a bus a couple years back?
O_O

Columbine shooters were by no means popular but in fact were normal kids. Average social settings. I didn't read about weapon playing but if that is the case most all kids who hunt will do a school shooting. The whole media influence is that it would desensitize people into not caring about life or death.

Glad too see a few more people that followed up on the case.

[Bubsy]

Interestingly enough, this proves something interesting. The Crazy ones can be anyone.

[Pwn3r_F0x]

Bubsy

Interestingly enough, this proves something interesting. The Crazy ones can be anyone.

That is what FBI reports stated. There is no accurate profiles for shooters.

[Grungekitty]

Pwn3r_F0x

Bubsy

Interestingly enough, this proves something interesting. The Crazy ones can be anyone.

That is what FBI reports stated. There is no accurate profiles for shooters.

'Nutters with guns' doesn't cut it as a definition?

[Repellant]

Pwn3r_F0x

Bubsy

Interestingly enough, this proves something interesting. The Crazy ones can be anyone.

That is what FBI reports stated. There is no accurate profiles for shooters.

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alienation

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bullying

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depression

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8rm3wPp84IU/Sm8ZKZcIbqI/AAAAAAAADug/hu4Bwskp2f4/s400/funny+police+officer+south+park+barbrady.jpg

DAMN! THEY COULD BE ANYWHERE!