School Shootings: Is it really media?

[I got bored one day]

On Mr. Jack Thompson: anti-videogame activist and his activities.

[marshmallowcreampie]

If media, such as video games, TV, and music, really was the source of school shootings and violence among the youth, then there would be WAY more school shootings and whatnot. People who are already violent and crazy would probably play violent video games anyway. I would like to point out a man who, in about the 60s or so, insisted that comic books were the source of misbehavior among youth. He argued that most of the troubled teens he worked with reaed comic books. And for the record, most of the teens in general in America read comic books (at least males, anyway, although there were several female-oriented comics).

[marshmallowcreampie]

Repellant

I like how music I listen to always get the attention when their listeners go postal.

Had they listened to The Beatles or whatever, would it gain the same coverage?

The only thing I can think of with that is the Helter Skelter thing, and a fictional scene from That 70s Show.

*after catching the kids doing drugs* "Who taught you how to do this?! It was those damn Beatles, wasn't it?!"

If society ever decides that everything is the medias fault, children would have an excuse to get away with anything, because they have someone to blame: the media. Doing drugs? Oh, it's Marios fault! He's always poppin' shrooms! Creating dogfighting rings? Pokemons fault! It involves catching creatures and having them fight each other! Reckless driving, while throwing bombs out the car window? I got it from Mario Kart!

*yeah, I don't have a wide range of video games past childish and cutesy...*

[he that killed giants]

I don't need to cite my sources on this one, because the other side is making the claim.

What psychological proof does anyone have that violent video games, or violent media entertainment in general will affect a person in such a way to make them go on violent killing rampages. So far, no one has been able to provide anything.

I'm not a psychology major, but I think even suggesting it sounds pretty idiotic.

[ohai_alyssa]

pulchritudinous soup

I watched a foreign film a few days ago called "Klass". Long story short, it's about teenage boys getting verbally, physically, and sexually abused by their peers. In the end... Well, you could probably guess.

I'm sorry if I spoiled the film for you. Really, it's not that hard to guess. I did enjoy the movie and I thought that it captured the emotions very well. But, that's not the point of this thread. However, I do recommend that you take a peak at the trailer and see if you're interested in watching.

There's a decently close resemblance of the background behind the boys within the Estonian film and they boys of Columbine. Though, I am quite sure that the film mentioned above is fictional. I do not believe that it's based around an actual shooting within Estonia. It could, however, correlate with the American massacre.

Columbine High School massacre

There are a few quotes in there that I would like to quote.

Quote:

Jerald Block, a US psychiatrist, has differed with the FBI opinion of psychopathology and depression, arguing that the killers' actions are not well explained by such diagnoses. Rather, he states that Klebold and Harris were immersed in games like Doom and that their lives were most gratifying while playing in the virtual.

Question 1: Do you think that video games greatly influence adolescents to become violent to such a degree that they would, literally, shoot and kill others for their own benefit?

Quote:

In the weeks following the shootings, media reports about the two students portrayed them as part of a Goth cult and an increase in suspicions of Goth subculture was manifest after the shootings.[41] Harris and Klebold were thought to be part of an informal school club called the Trenchcoat Mafia. Later, such characterizations were considered incorrect.[42]

Question 2: Is the Gothic trend worthy of blame?

Quote:

Blame for the shootings was directed at bands like Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, and other mainstream 'dark' music groups, which was detailed in Michael Moore's documentary Bowling for Columbine. Lead singer Manson stated on a VH1 interview that the band had cancelled three concerts in memoriam of the tragedy. When asked what he would have said to kids at Columbine or to the people in the community, Manson replied: "I wouldn't say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say, and that's what no one did."[43]

Question 3: Was it appropriate to blame Marilyn Manson? Can music influence someone to do something as violent as this?

Which is responsible?

The media?

Or

The bullying?

You CAN be within the middle. Reasoning is encouraged.

Rules of Fabulous Debate

1. State your position.
2. Provide sources to support your claim.
3. Direct insult to an individual is prohibited.


P.S., I am half asleep so I will not be here to check on the feedback until later. I'm sorry if I'm not clear... I'm trying not to go kaplunk onto my bed.

1. I'm completely and utterly on the side that it's the bullying's fault. 100% effing percent.
2. You need sources that bullying is the fault of this? Do you think if kids weren't put through agony by their peers day in and day out that they would still be this depressed and angry? Yes, I understand how people find things like Marilyn Manson and violent video games repulsive. I can't say as I blame them, however, I'm a huge MM fan, and I have no violent repulse at all. All the "Goths" and "Emos" I know happen to be some of the nicest people I've ever met. And a good chunk of them aren't into the popularity and drama that Middle School brings. Most people who are into this scene are good people, nice people, that simply want to stand out. Bringing blame upon a whole lifestyle is ridiculous. Marilyn Manson is, yes, on the "darker" side of things, but how does this influence his fans? It doesn't influence me. I frankly look up to him as someone who can go through all the blame he's gone through without giving up. I also think he's a good example of doing what you want, being who you want to be, without letting someone else's opinion influence you. The claim that Columbine was only his fault, or the music's fault is ridiculous. Obviously something had to have gone wrong for these kids to feel how they do. And just because they feel that that genre of music is a good output for frustrations doesn't make them insane and shoot up schools. Obviously these kids were either facing neglect or abuse by some kind of their peers. Don't deny it.

— Springfield Township, Pa. Dec. 12, 2006. A 16-year-old male high school shot and killed himself with an AK-47 assault rifle in the hallway of his high school. The student, reportedly despondent over his grades, had the gun concealed in a camouflage duffle bag and fired one round in the ceiling to warn other students to get out of the way before committing suicide.

— Katy, Texas. Oct. 17, 2006. A 16-year-old male high school sophomore committed suicide by shooting himself with a handgun in the school's cafeteria courtyard.

— Greenville, Texas. March 7, 2007. A 16-year-old male high school student fatally shot himself while in the band hallway area of the school around 7:15 a.m. No other students were injured. More than 100 parents rushed to the school to remove their students.

— Pittsburgh, Pa. Sept. 17, 2006. Five Duquesne University basketball players are wounded after a shooting on campus after a dance. One of the two shooters was allegedly upset that his date had talked to one of the athletes.

— Hillsborough, N.C. Aug. 30, 2006. After shooting his father to death, a student open fires at his high school, injuring two students. Deputies found guns, ammunition, and homemade pipe bombs in the student's car. The student had emailed Columbine High's principal, telling him that it was "time the world remembered" the shootings at Columbine.

— Joyce, Wash. March 17, 2004. A 13-year-old student shot and killed himself in a school classroom where about 20 other students were present. The boy reportedly brought a .22-caliber rifle hidden in a guitar case and pulled it out during the 10 a.m. class.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266371,00.html.

Now if you look at some of the other ones, some of them are pretty gorey and insane. You can't tell me all of these are the result of rock music. Sometimes, the world's just ******** insane.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Who's responsible?

Why, the individuals who fired the weapons, of course.

[The_Broken_Angel_Of_Time]

1. No
2. No
3. No

[Pwn3r_F0x]

BaeKim

They shot up the school for various reasons. Media influences, bullying ,depression and I think one of the teenagers had antisocial personality disorder.

Again bullying was never verified if it was I just don't remember it in the official investigation. Media also was never determined to cause that problem. Toss out the antisocial behavior as I said they had a tight group of close friends. But he did have major psychological disorders

[marinebase7]

Correlation does not imply Causation, also known as c** hoc ergo propter hoc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

[Grungekitty]

marinebase7

Correlation does not imply Causation, also known as c** hoc ergo propter hoc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Absolutely. You've put your finger squarely on the division between the rational world of deductive logic and the empirical world of matter and experience.

There is correlation between the number of obese people in a population and the number of televisions. But to say that owning a television makes you fat is a hasty leap. There are many thin people who own televisions.

And the actual link is that wealthy nations have more televisions and wealthy nations are also more obese because we, as a species, aren't smart enough realise that the likelyhood of famine is so low that we're harming our life-expectancy by eating so much.

But, of course, that can't be 'proved' to a deductive standard either.

In fact, using that standard of causation, nothing about the physical world can be 'proved' to be caused by anything else.

For example, you can't prove that making an obvious statement in Latin impresses people more than making it in English.

Back at the topic:

I say that blaming the USA's absurd number of school shootings on teenagers' taste in music or button-pressing computer games or mean spirited bullying is a piece of false reasoning. For teenagers elswhere in the world buy the same computer games and the same records and the same posters of Marilyn Manson and they bully and they pick on the vulnerable. But they don't shoot up their schools nearly as much.
(e.g. UK - last school shooting was Dunblane in 1996. Australia - last school shooting was Port Arthur in 1996)

But I notice that the USA has an absurd number of spree killings and shootings outside schools as well. And the USA has more than one firearm per head of population. And the other nations - which don't have that grotesque number of guns - don't have the same rate of spree killings and school shootings and non-school shootings.

The USA has three times the murder rate of any of the other 25 most developed nations. Why is that ? I say: because of the USA's cult of gun ownership.

[Sexual Chocolat]

It's bad White parenting. Ain't a SINGLE Black kid shot up a school YET!

[Pwn3r_F0x]

Sexual Chocolat

It's bad White parenting. Ain't a SINGLE Black kid shot up a school YET!

Asians are still best with the VA tech

[Teacup Chibi]

Stupid people influence other stupid people with their own stupidity. It's the fault of the stupid feeble-minded idiot who takes the action more than the creepy writer. Marilyn Manson's music is not what I'd call that violent. People who kill often do not listen to music as their influence, it happens more as a desire to kill before taking the action in most cases. Some music does happen to influence people who are not being watched by their parents so they are being guided by entertainment instead ; they live their fantasy life out without guidance and it sometimes can affect behavioral patterns in young naive people. It is up to their parents to take good care of them and watch them. I do agree some music is too violent for my ears, but many kids may listen to music and kill people without any influence by the music itself. The Columbine dipshits were actually popular guys who listened to normal music and weren't at all dark in their tastes in entertainment, but they did play with weapons and build bombs together as a hobby. Sociopaths often are socially acceptable people who are known for their abundant charisma in the social spectrum.

Are we going to blame zombie films for the Canadian guy who ate brains on a bus a couple years back?
O_O

[Sexual Chocolat]

Pwn3r_F0x

Sexual Chocolat

It's bad White parenting. Ain't a SINGLE Black kid shot up a school YET!

Asians are still best with the VA tech

Well, ******** yeah. Gotta give them credit on that!