[ Poll ] Religion - a form of control!

If you are a Catholic did you know about this part in your history?

Yeah		17.1%	[ 7 ]
Nope!		2.4%	[ 1 ]
I'm not a Catholic		70.7%	[ 29 ]
Not me! I'm a Christian! <3		9.8%	[ 4 ]

Total Votes: 41

[Maroahda]

Hello there people! heart

I'm looking for a good argument here! I learnt alot today about the Catholic Church in my medievil class. Did you know!... That back in the 13th century there was a Pope named Pope Innocent III, and when King John made him angry (because he was somewhat trying to sneak his Administrator into the position of Archbishop of Canterbury) he excommunicated church activities from England. Meaning that everyone was blaming the king, because they all feared that they were going to hell - because they couldn't pray in church, get married, have a funeral!
Religion was used as a weapon to threaten the King! But even the King is in shame, because King John was trying to sneak someone in to influence the Church HIMSELF! It's like they were using gods name as a use of power, as a use of control!
Tell me that doesn't happen today - that people are still using Gods name as a power when they are in such position.

[Maroahda]

Here is a part of my essay I'm writing for extra credit....


At the very beginning of the Magna Carta there is a line; ‘In the first place we have granted god’ that the English church is free and shall have her rights entire, that they have ‘Unwritten Liberties’. God is mentioned on the first sentence of the first two paragraphs, this is a powerful name used in the Magna Carta as a line of order. Let’s just say if I was going to tell you why I’m writing this essay, I can say “Because I’m doing this in the name of God.” Or “I am doing this in Gods name.” In other words I am speaking on the guys behalf and I am using his name to get where I want to be. Let’s just pretend that I’m the Pope for a moment, I’m going change the law; “If you don’t pay more tax, come to my parties and stop bad mouthing my sister you will all go to hell and I will stop all church activities until you agree with me!”
That is basically what Pope Innocent III did to King John, he rattled his cage so the Pope fought back in the most(In my view) disgusting way possible. He used religion as a weapon. I repeat, as a weapon! Could you imagine if the Pope did that today? They’d be thrown off!(Or would they?!) Because religion was such a huge influence back then, it made a dramatic impact. The people instantly blamed John; they all lived in fear, believing that they’re going to hell because of their King – thanks to him they were excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. Nobody could get married, no-one could be buried and this is all because of the King’s behaviour.
But over this ‘Quarrel’ as history likes to put it; behind it I feel there was a lot of twisted murder involved. King John wanted more influence over the church, so what does that tell us about the Catholic Church, or religion all in all? People using position as a voice of God.

[Spatterdash]

Anything that people will believe very strongly in to the extent that they will deny their own interests and their own sense of reason can be used as a tool for control. Religion, nationalism, ideology - provided you can get people to place blind trust in it, you can manipulate them.

[Maroahda]

Spatterdash

Anything that people will believe very strongly in to the extent that they will deny their own interests and their own sense of reason can be used as a tool for control. Religion, nationalism, ideology - provided you can get people to place blind trust in it, you can manipulate them.

Yes I know, but Religion is just everywhere, and the thing is... I am confident it is nothing more than a form of control. A line of morals. The way Pope Innocent III punished England was like punishing a child. Talk about dictating.... Unless King John signed the Magna Carta Innocent was keeping it that way too.!

[J2 Approved]

I do know about that. And I know about the religious crusades that were lead by Christians in the past, in which many people were killed. I'm Catholic, and I know that Catholic's aren't exactly proud of the actions and misunderstandings that have happened in the past. But when something - such as religion - draws belief from a large majority of the people, some are bound to misuse it. As a Catholic, I just view it as another challenge and potential situation of deception that exist in the world today. It's everyone's decision whether to believe some of the people who ARE misusing God's name or misinterpreting God's message into something not so moral or considerate.

[Projectoutlet]

Maroahda

Hello there people! heart

I'm looking for a good argument here! I learnt alot today about the Catholic Church in my medievil class. Did you know!... That back in the 13th century there was a Pope named Pope Innocent III, and when King John made him angry (because he was somewhat trying to sneak his Administrator into the position of Archbishop of Canterbury) he excommunicated church activities from England. Meaning that everyone was blaming the king, because they all feared that they were going to hell - because they couldn't pray in church, get married, have a funeral!
Religion was used as a weapon to threaten the King! But even the King is in shame, because King John was trying to sneak someone in to influence the Church HIMSELF! It's like they were using gods name as a use of power, as a use of control!
Tell me that doesn't happen today - that people are still using Gods name as a power when they are in such position.

It definitely happens today. Everywhere. Most of the wars that are going on are founded in religion and religious beliefs. It's sometimes more subtle (or not), but it's there.

I think if you looked more into religion and it's history ( I haven't taken an in depth class, but I have read a lot) that you will find out how religion has been used to manipulate people from the start. If you read up on Pagans and how so much of Catholicism and Christianity is taken from the rituals pagans used, it would blow your mind. The Christians eventually killed off pagans, but people still follow pagan beliefs. I was taught in Catholic school that all other religions are wrong and that I was supposed to bring people to our views. Right from the start I knew something was fundamentally wrong with that. That is definitely about power. It is 99% of the time. Its not about being good to each other and loving each other/treating each other with respect. It's about power and control and being right. And getting rid of those people who don't believe and those who might convince others to question as well.

[Maroahda]

x_classic

I do know about that. And I know about the religious crusades that were lead by Christians in the past, in which many people were killed. I'm Catholic, and I know that Catholic's aren't exactly proud of the actions and misunderstandings that have happened in the past. But when something - such as religion - draws belief from a large majority of the people, some are bound to misuse it. As a Catholic, I just view it as another challenge and potential situation of deception that exist in the world today. It's everyone's decision whether to believe some of the people who ARE misusing God's name or misinterpreting God's message into something not so moral or considerate.

I'm glad to hear that you know, i have a few Catholic friends and they had no idea!!!
But the thing is - how do you know that it's not happening today, because in our world today secrets are much easier to hide and our society is so much more agrivated because questions are not being awnsered honestly. there are so many cospiracy's. Alot of people are murdered secretly andit was no different back then when the Throne was always being fought over. Did you know that King john died the same year as Pope Innocent?? 1216AD! First King John(I think) then innocent. Just a coincidence? One was a failiure and the other was turning into a minipulative dictator!

[Spatterdash]

Maroahda

Spatterdash

Anything that people will believe very strongly in to the extent that they will deny their own interests and their own sense of reason can be used as a tool for control. Religion, nationalism, ideology - provided you can get people to place blind trust in it, you can manipulate them.

Yes I know, but Religion is just everywhere, and the thing is... I am confident it is nothing more than a form of control. A line of morals. The way Pope Innocent III punished England was like punishing a child. Talk about dictating.... Unless King John signed the Magna Carta Innocent was keeping it that way too.!

Ah, but religion can also be used as a tool to resist control. Protestantism arose from rebellion against the corruption of Catholic institutions. Methodism and Baptism gained huge popularity amongst the working class of England as a resistance to the Anglican aristocratic establishment. In Latin America today, there's radical Catholics who use 'liberation theology' to combine Christianity and revolutionary politics, pointing out how Jesus was opposed to the leaders of his era and preached the rejection of material wealth and status.
Not to mention that nationalism and political ideology are everywhere too. Stalin didn't need religion to keep the Soviets in line when his bastardisation of communism and his emphasis on building up Russian power would serve just as good a purpose, for example - in the USSR, where religious belief was illegal, attending church was definitely a sign of opposition to control.
Don't confuse religion itself with the people who use it. Religion is neutral. It can motivate people to do great deeds, or it can motivate people to justify persecution and hatred.

[Maroahda]

Projectoutlet

It definitely happens today. Everywhere. Most of the wars that are going on are founded in religion and religious beliefs. It's sometimes more subtle (or not), but it's there.

I think if you looked more into religion and it's history ( I haven't taken an in depth class, but I have read a lot) that you will find out how religion has been used to manipulate people from the start. If you read up on Pagans and how so much of Catholicism and Christianity is taken from the rituals pagans used, it would blow your mind. The Christians eventually killed off pagans, but people still follow pagan beliefs. I was taught in Catholic school that all other religions are wrong and that I was supposed to bring people to our views. Right from the start I knew something was fundamentally wrong with that. That is definitely about power. It is 99% of the time. Its not about being good to each other and loving each other/treating each other with respect. It's about power and control and being right. And getting rid of those people who don't believe and those who might convince others to question as well.

Thankyou for your share of knolegde I will definatly read up on the Pagans at some pont. I can't say muchon that part because I don't know much about the wars yet but I know we'll be learning about civil war next week!

[SpaceSS]

I wouldn't consider it a form of control as much as an outlet for people's beliefs. People that want to be part of a flock of sheep may or may not look to religion for a community of people wanting guidance.

[CTFarnham]

Maroahda

Projectoutlet

It definitely happens today. Everywhere. Most of the wars that are going on are founded in religion and religious beliefs. It's sometimes more subtle (or not), but it's there.

I think if you looked more into religion and it's history ( I haven't taken an in depth class, but I have read a lot) that you will find out how religion has been used to manipulate people from the start. If you read up on Pagans and how so much of Catholicism and Christianity is taken from the rituals pagans used, it would blow your mind. The Christians eventually killed off pagans, but people still follow pagan beliefs. I was taught in Catholic school that all other religions are wrong and that I was supposed to bring people to our views. Right from the start I knew something was fundamentally wrong with that. That is definitely about power. It is 99% of the time. Its not about being good to each other and loving each other/treating each other with respect. It's about power and control and being right. And getting rid of those people who don't believe and those who might convince others to question as well.

Thankyou for your share of knolegde I will definatly read up on the Pagans at some pont. I can't say muchon that part because I don't know much about the wars yet but I know we'll be learning about civil war next week!

I'm surprised anyone is shocked by the political nature of the Medieval Church. Of course this was a power dispute between John of England and Innocent III.

It happened because John got into an argument with the Canterbury Cathedral chapter over who should be the new Archbishop of Canterbury (this was in 1205). This was important because the Archbishop of Canterbury was the highest clergyman in England. The chapter wanted one guy, the King wanted someone else. They ended up appealing to Innocent, and he chose a third guy to be Archbishop.

John, supported by his barons, refused to accept the Pope's choice, though the Canterbury chapter did. He expelled them in 1207. Pope Innocent reacted by slapping an interdict on England, forbidding, as you say, all public rites and sacraments within the country (it's the equivalent of excommunicating the country en masse). This is no longer part of canon law, by the way, so Pope Benedict can't really do it.

Anyway, John retaliated by seizing church property for failure of the clergy to provide feudal service (they had obligations to the King as well as to the Pope). In 1209 the Pope allowed some churches to say Mass behind closed doors, and in 1212 he allowed the last rites to be performed. The interdict was a pain but - very significantly - no one rose against the King because of this.

In 1213 the Pope threatened to authorize the King of France to invade England as part of a Crusade, at which point John submitted and made over the kingdom to the Pope, agreeing to pay 1,000 marks annually. This gained John papal support against his barons, who were getting restless and finally did rebel in 1214, after the English were badly defeated by the French and had to sign an unfavorable treaty.

So, see, this is how Europe worked in the Middle Ages. There was no singing "Kumbaya" and "Michael Rowed the Boat Ashore" and holding hands and all. It was cut-throat politics (and I do mean "cut throat" wink . Western civilization is actually rather more civilized now.

[J2 Approved]

Maroahda

x_classic

I do know about that. And I know about the religious crusades that were lead by Christians in the past, in which many people were killed. I'm Catholic, and I know that Catholic's aren't exactly proud of the actions and misunderstandings that have happened in the past. But when something - such as religion - draws belief from a large majority of the people, some are bound to misuse it. As a Catholic, I just view it as another challenge and potential situation of deception that exist in the world today. It's everyone's decision whether to believe some of the people who ARE misusing God's name or misinterpreting God's message into something not so moral or considerate.

I'm glad to hear that you know, i have a few Catholic friends and they had no idea!!!
But the thing is - how do you know that it's not happening today, because in our world today secrets are much easier to hide and our society is so much more agrivated because questions are not being awnsered honestly. there are so many cospiracy's. Alot of people are murdered secretly andit was no different back then when the Throne was always being fought over. Did you know that King john died the same year as Pope Innocent?? 1216AD! First King John(I think) then innocent. Just a coincidence? One was a failiure and the other was turning into a minipulative dictator!

I don't believe it's not happening today, at least not fully. People have more freedom with their religions than today. In my opinion, the upcoming generation is more accepting of other religions. I know, and are friends with, Muslims, Atheists, etc. Yes, there are such things as conspiracies and secret plots to murder people. But that all can't be directly linked to Catholicism or Christianity. The supposed conspiracies that have have been brought to light or questioned recently are related to politics or pure envy and greed. I don't think it's right to blame violence on Catholicism. There is really no message in the true religion directing people to murder or kill non-Catholics or those who don't follow the Bible. Those who kill in the name of God are in a class of their own.

[Glam desquicio]

Even when I'm not catholic, I'm interested in those topics. So I knew that part you've shared. That's one of the reasons why I do not trust in any religion. I don't think a whole system like that is needed to be a good person.

From my point of view, when you read the holy book, you shall identify two parts: the moral one - pretty nice, I'd say - and the fairy tale about the origin of everything.

[GoldenRatio]

People were tourtured for not believing in the same god. Hell it still happens. Religion causes wars, it leads to violence. Yes, it has it's benefits in one community. But overall, it leads to more chaos than good.

Everyone is fighting over whose god is the right god. And eventually, the communion that Gods word brought to the world, eventually turns to lust for power. We see it in Iraq, we see it in Ireland. We see it everywhere. We see it in our own community:

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2003-10/9982556.jpg

[CTFarnham]

Projectoutlet

Maroahda

Hello there people! heart

I'm looking for a good argument here! I learnt alot today about the Catholic Church in my medievil class. Did you know!... That back in the 13th century there was a Pope named Pope Innocent III, and when King John made him angry (because he was somewhat trying to sneak his Administrator into the position of Archbishop of Canterbury) he excommunicated church activities from England. Meaning that everyone was blaming the king, because they all feared that they were going to hell - because they couldn't pray in church, get married, have a funeral!
Religion was used as a weapon to threaten the King! But even the King is in shame, because King John was trying to sneak someone in to influence the Church HIMSELF! It's like they were using gods name as a use of power, as a use of control!
Tell me that doesn't happen today - that people are still using Gods name as a power when they are in such position.

It definitely happens today. Everywhere. Most of the wars that are going on are founded in religion and religious beliefs. It's sometimes more subtle (or not), but it's there.

I think if you looked more into religion and it's history ( I haven't taken an in depth class, but I have read a lot) that you will find out how religion has been used to manipulate people from the start. If you read up on Pagans and how so much of Catholicism and Christianity is taken from the rituals pagans used, it would blow your mind. The Christians eventually killed off pagans, but people still follow pagan beliefs. I was taught in Catholic school that all other religions are wrong and that I was supposed to bring people to our views. Right from the start I knew something was fundamentally wrong with that. That is definitely about power. It is 99% of the time. Its not about being good to each other and loving each other/treating each other with respect. It's about power and control and being right. And getting rid of those people who don't believe and those who might convince others to question as well.

You misunderstand the Church's point of view. It's not really about power, it's about saving people's immortal souls. The Church sees itself as making sure that people go to Heaven. They don't really care about what rules you follow, as long as you follow the ones they have worked out to ensure your getting to Heaven. I mean, I don't really think priests and bishops sat around and said, "Okay, what silly-a** rules can we come up with to extend our control of people? How about ... no eating meat on Fridays? That should really put people's noses out of joint!" It's a matter of fasting to get closer to God and Jesus, with a little bit of medieval or Renaissance economics thrown in.