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DynaSuarez Wrecks
First of all, let me explain that I believe that statutory rape is bullshit, and so is calling someone a rapist just because they had sex with someone of a predesignated age. So frankly, in light of the kid telling the court that he willfully engaged in sex acts, I don't think there is any injustice in forcing him to pay child support. However, I also think it's pretty ******** laughable that the courts are undermining their own laws by taking into consideration the willful participation of someone who, legally, can't willfully participate.

The cited case from the article came from California. California's jurisprudence agrees with you in that it says that, as a matter of law, some young adults can give competent consent.

While courts are not going to overturn statute, they seem unwilling to extend victim protections to someone who has, in their view, consented to breaking with the law. Its similar to how the court denies victims from an unfair drug deal contractual remedies like breach of contract.

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Riviera de la Mancha

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Let me get this right, you're arguing that sex with someone who cannot legally consent is not rape? There is a reason statutory laws exist. It is because people under the age of majority are still developing their minds and personalities, and can easily be influenced by those older than them. Rape by coercion and grooming is still rape. Consent under duress is not considered consent, and thus sex under duress is also rape. By law, this is not a case of consensual sex because a minor cannot legally consent.
Nymph of Life
Riviera de la Mancha

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Let me get this right, you're arguing that sex with someone who cannot legally consent is not rape? There is a reason statutory laws exist. It is because people under the age of majority are still developing their minds and personalities, and can easily be influenced by those older than them. Rape by coercion and grooming is still rape. Consent under duress is not considered consent, and thus sex under duress is also rape. By law, this is not a case of consensual sex because a minor cannot legally consent.

No. Not even close.

What I am saying, among other things, is that the courts in CA do not have an irrefutable presumption that teens cannot consent to sex for statutory rape. Further, I am also saying that while courts don't punish victims, it does not treat all victims as equals. When you have a victim of some wrong who was complicit and assisted in the wrong, the law's not going to give them as much protection as those who were not complicit.

There was no determination that the teen was groomed, nor that the teen was under duress.

Like I said, this is a complex issue. People are free to disagree, but they ought to disagree about facts and issues as they are, not what amount to strawmen.
Nymph of Life
DynaSuarez Wrecks
First of all, let me explain that I believe that statutory rape is bullshit, and so is calling someone a rapist just because they had sex with someone of a predesignated age. So frankly, in light of the kid telling the court that he willfully engaged in sex acts, I don't think there is any injustice in forcing him to pay child support. However, I also think it's pretty ******** laughable that the courts are undermining their own laws by taking into consideration the willful participation of someone who, legally, can't willfully participate.
Hey look, a sick b*****d who wants to legalize ***** necro. Anyway, I don't think ***** is illegal; it's the sexual assault of a child that's illegal.
Nymph of Life
DynaSuarez Wrecks
First of all, let me explain that I believe that statutory rape is bullshit, and so is calling someone a rapist just because they had sex with someone of a predesignated age. So frankly, in light of the kid telling the court that he willfully engaged in sex acts, I don't think there is any injustice in forcing him to pay child support. However, I also think it's pretty ******** laughable that the courts are undermining their own laws by taking into consideration the willful participation of someone who, legally, can't willfully participate.
Hey look, a sick b*****d who wants to legalize ***** did you bring that thread back 20 months years later?

Edit: Months, not years. Whoops. sweatdrop
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture



Evidently according to California law, which I find hilarious, you can be a 'victim' in one court and a 'willing victim' in another. So...a statuatory rape victim can be responsible for child support. Absolutely brilliant ******** logic.
The kids brains aren't fully formed enough to make responsible decisions, but by damn, we're gonna say they are responsible enough for sex!! Even if we just said they aren't.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture



Evidently according to California law, which I find hilarious, you can be a 'victim' in one court and a 'willing victim' in another. So...a statuatory rape victim can be responsible for child support. Absolutely brilliant ******** logic.
The kids brains aren't fully formed enough to make responsible decisions, but by damn, we're gonna say they are responsible enough for sex!! Even if we just said they aren't.
Something tells me this "willing victim" s**t only applies to male teenagers. Some fifteen year old girl gets emotionally manipulated into some sexy-fun-time with a grown-a** man and the courts will be coming for his head just as hard as the local mob.

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Roih Uvet
Something tells me this "willing victim" s**t only applies to male teenagers. Some fifteen year old girl gets emotionally manipulated into some sexy-fun-time with a grown-a** man and the courts will be coming for his head just as hard as the local mob.
Well of course, it's only the men who are considered "willing" victims. Women aren't responsible for their actions, don't ya know

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The20
Nymph of Life
DynaSuarez Wrecks
First of all, let me explain that I believe that statutory rape is bullshit, and so is calling someone a rapist just because they had sex with someone of a predesignated age. So frankly, in light of the kid telling the court that he willfully engaged in sex acts, I don't think there is any injustice in forcing him to pay child support. However, I also think it's pretty ******** laughable that the courts are undermining their own laws by taking into consideration the willful participation of someone who, legally, can't willfully participate.
Hey look, a sick b*****d who wants to legalize ***** did you bring that thread back 20 months years later?
Because I haven't been here in about 20 months years, and I wanted to bring back the discussion I started. Some of us actually ave lives and can't post on Gaia every two minutes like you can
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture

*Sigh* No, not at all. How you got that is beyond me.

Where does child molestation come into all of this? The person who violated CA statutory rape laws was not charged with child molestation. In CA, molestation charged are brought under sexual abuse of a minor under the CA penal code.
Riviera de la Mancha
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture

*Sigh* No, not at all. How you got that is beyond me.

Where does child molestation come into all of this? The person who violated CA statutory rape laws was not charged with child molestation. In CA, molestation charged are brought under sexual abuse of a minor under the CA penal code.
Well, maybe if you were better at English you'd understand where I got that.

This talk of a "willing victim" seems to downplay the significance of child molestation. At the very least, it raises questions of if we should even have age of consent laws in the first place since the "victim" was "willing" in the eyes of the law, and failing that, lowering the age of consent to something that doesn't allow for the "victim" to be "willing."

"Willing victim" is some ******** weasel word bullshit, and you and I both know it.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture



Evidently according to California law, which I find hilarious, you can be a 'victim' in one court and a 'willing victim' in another. So...a statuatory rape victim can be responsible for child support. Absolutely brilliant ******** logic.
The kids brains aren't fully formed enough to make responsible decisions, but by damn, we're gonna say they are responsible enough for sex!! Even if we just said they aren't.

Incorrect.

A more crass, but accurate, description of what CA does, along with a number of other states, is say that some people are more "victims" than other "victims". A victim hierarchy if you will.

At the bottom of the hierarchy are victims of criminal acts who are then seeking legal remedies in the civil arena for the negative consequences of criminal acts they were willingly apart of. In addition to the defendant in the case from the article, we find, for example, drug users seeking contractual remedies for breach of contract in a drug transaction. At the top end is a victim who was not complicit at all in some criminal act and is now seeking a civil or judicial remedy to ameliorate the negative impacts of criminal wrongs.

What you also need to remember is that the judicial branch doesn't decide what is a crime, so it never "said" that teens are not responsible enough for sex. That was the decision of the legislature. While courts are not going to overturn the statutory rape laws (which is why the rapist in the prior case was charged), they are not at all bound to recognize legislative determinations when it comes to applying judicial remedies like excuse from child support payments in pursuit of justice. That's what the 15 year old was asking for, and the courts, in their discretion, denied it.

Again, feel free to disagree with it, but don't be intentionally inaccurate or over-simplistic.
Nymph of Life
Riviera de la Mancha

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Let me get this right, you're arguing that sex with someone who cannot legally consent is not rape? There is a reason statutory laws exist. It is because people under the age of majority are still developing their minds and personalities, and can easily be influenced by those older than them. Rape by coercion and grooming is still rape. Consent under duress is not considered consent, and thus sex under duress is also rape. By law, this is not a case of consensual sex because a minor cannot legally consent.
Your mind is developing until you're 25, give or take. Do you want to make sex with someone younger than 25 illegal? Good luck with that. Besides, there are exceptions like the Rome and Juliet clauses in several states, making it perfectly legal for two teenagers of reasonably similar age to have sex without both ending up in jail.
I don't know if that was the reason why it was invented in the first place, but these days it appears age of consent is mostly there to prevent old farts from abusing naive teenagers.


Old Blue Collar Joe
The kids brains aren't fully formed enough to make responsible decisions
Some people never get to that point. Unfortunately they still breed.
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Roih Uvet
Riviera de la Mancha
Nymph of Life
Society has a cruel double standard when it comes to rape.
I'm not talking about same sex rape, I'm talking about cases where women rape men.
Women are given a sympathetic ear, while men are often forced to suffer in silence, or shamed for looking a gift horse in the mouth. Men who are victims, have their very sexuality questioned, because what man doesn't want sex? That stereotype aside, a horrible crime has been committed and a man has been made a victim.

But what happens when the rapist gets pregnant?
If she keeps the child, her victim may face a second rape, in the form of child support.

Rape Victim Ordered to Pay Child Support
Quote:
Statutory rape laws have often been controversial and unequally applied to male and female victims and perpetrators. While very few believe that sexual activity with minors who have not yet reached puberty (child molestation) is acceptable, many believe that once a child has reached puberty, the child should be capable of providing consent to sexual activity. Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that persons below a specified age or who suffer from certain mental deficiencies are incapable of providing consent. These laws make it illegal for adults to coerce children into having sex.

Historically, statutory rape laws were designed to protect teenage girls from males who may take their virginity, impregnate them, and refuse to take responsibility and marry them. Thus, they served the purpose of protecting the honor of the girl and of preventing teenage pregnancy. They also helped to ensure the child would have a means of support. It wasn’t until much later that these laws began to be applied to protect boys as well. However, the application remains quite uneven.

According to the DOJ, 95% of statutory rape victims reported to law enforcement are female, yet many studies have determined that boys comprise a much higher percentage of the victims. For instance, Dorais estimates that one in six boys will be sexually abused before the age of 16.

Social attitudes are primarily responsible for the double standard. According to Miriam Denov, there is a “myth of innocence” surrounding female sexuality that frequently regards sex between a young male and an older female to be a rite of passage and that it is somehow acceptable or less harmful than when the other way around. Further, boys are taught not to view themselves as victims as this is “unmanly.”

Law enforcement may not take such complaints seriously. In a previous post (Living in a Culture of Denial), I discussed the problems with the attitude of law enforcement towards male victims. Officers and other professionals may even redefine the act so as to make it acceptable. Even the male victims may view it as a positive experience and not a crime, leading to gross underreporting. In what may be the most bizarre denial of the existence of male victims, courts have held that male victims of rape can be held responsible for child support.

In California, an appellate court upheld an order (San Luis Obispo Count y v. Nathan J., 1996) forcing a 15 year old boy to pay child support to his rapist after she became pregnant and gave birth.The court ruled that although the boy was considered too young to provide consent to the sex act, he was an admitted willing participant and therefore liable to pay support stating that he was not an “innocent victim” because he had discussed it with his rapist prior to having sex.

That this act was illegal and may have constituted coercion was apparently lost on the court. If the boy is considered legally incapable of providing consent, how can he be considered legally liable for giving that consent? Any consent or cooperation on his part should have been considered coercion and therefore not consent at all.

California is not the only state where this is the case. Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and other states also force rape victims to pay child support to their rapists.
In Kentucky, a prosecutor stated that he would help a woman collect child support from a man who was 14 at the time she raped him while neglecting to charge the woman with statutory rape. The state of Colorado attempted to recover AFDC payments from a man who was just 12 when he became a father with an older woman. Contrast this with the allowances made for abortion for women who are raped (including statutory rape) even from many who are opposed to abortion in other circumstances.

Mothers are also permitted to give up their children for adoption, no questions asked, should they not want their children. In no case is a woman forced to raise or pay for a child conceived during a rape.

But this is not the case with fathers. Two separate cases indicate that even when sperm is stolen or a man is forcibly raped, the man remains liable for child support. In Louisiana a man was ordered to pay child support to a woman who had him wear a condom during oral sex. She then took the condom extracted the sperm and impregnated herself. In Alabama, a man was actually raped by a woman and was still ordered to pay child support. This man got drunk at a party and passed out. The next morning he awoke in bed, naked from the waist down. He testified that he did not remember having sex. Others testified that the mother had actually bragged about having sex with him when he was “passed out” and “wasn’t even aware of it.” This constitutes rape in most states, yet the man was ordered to pay support to the woman who was apparently not even criminally charged.

The National Legal Research Group refers to this as “a strict liability theory of sperm,” i.e. a man is liable for his sperm no matter what the circumstance. One court has attempted to justify its actions on the basis of biology rather than admit discrimination:

“[w]hile it is true that after conception a woman has more control than a man over the decision whether to bear a child, and may unilaterally refuse to obtain an abortion, those facts were known to the father at the time of conception. The choice available to a woman vests in her by the fact that she, and not the man, must carry the child and must undergo whatever traumas, physical and mental, may be attendant to either childbirth or abortion. Any differing treatment accorded men and women . . . is owed not to the operation of [state law] but to the operation of nature.”

While there may be natural differences between men and women, in this day and age, it is simply wrong to place all the rights in the hands of women and all the responsibility on the shoulders of men. Rights carry responsibilities. If a woman desires the right to choose, then the woman must be required to bear the responsibility for her decision. If, as the above court stated, the “facts were known to the father at the time of conception” then certainly they were also known to the mother. To hold her to a different standard simply because of biology is morally wrong. She should have the right to choose, but her decision should not be forced upon the father. She may have to bear the burden of either childbirth or abortion, but she also has a wide variety of options for birth control that the man simply doesn’t have. Further, in this day and age, she also has career opportunities that will permit her to support a child on her own.

This is especially true in circumstances where the father was a victim of rape or statutory rape. Ordering a victim of rape (even statutory rape) to pay child support to his rapist is tantamount to allowing the rapist to rape him over and over again. Not only is it a constant reminder, it is like he is being punished for being a victim of a crime. It is unthinkable that our court system not only condones, but has legalized this draconian practice. It is not only an injustice, it is an obscenity that is being perpetrated on male victims. It needs to end.


Why should a victim be financially raped by his attacker? Society doesn't expect a woman to raise a child that was the result of her rape, though some women do this. So why should a male victim be forced to send money to his attacker?

While I don't think men should be compelled to pay child support payments in cases of rape, two things bug me about people when they debate certain issues:

Misstatements of fact.

Over-simplification.

To wit, the first case cited by the article County of San Luis Obispo v. Nathaniel J (Nathaniel). The article classifies the case as a rape, leaving you to assume the child was forced into a sex act. However, that's not the case. Nathaniel is a statutory rape case for starters. Continuing, Nathaniel is quoted as saying that the sex was "a mutually agreeable act". They also don't mention that Nathaniel had sex with the "rapist" five times over a two week period, all of which took place against the backdrop of discussions between the adult and 15 year old about having sex. While the law doesn't support punishing victims, it doesn't treat all victims the same at law. Just like the law doesn't afford breach of contract remedies to parties in an illegal drug deal, its certainly not unheard of for courts to deny consensual sex partners immunity to child support payments for mutually violating statutory rape laws.

Now, people are free to disagree with the law or some of the conclusions the court drew in that case. However, what doesn't do a discussion any favors is one side intentionally misstating and over-simplifying what is a complex issue.
Do you mean to suggest that statutory rapes aren't real rapes?

Because last I checked, child molesters were considered even slimier than run-of-the-mill adult-on-adult rapists in our culture

*Sigh* No, not at all. How you got that is beyond me.

Where does child molestation come into all of this? The person who violated CA statutory rape laws was not charged with child molestation. In CA, molestation charged are brought under sexual abuse of a minor under the CA penal code.
Well, maybe if you were better at English you'd understand where I got that.

This talk of a "willing victim" seems to downplay the significance of child molestation. At the very least, it raises questions of if we should even have age of consent laws in the first place since the "victim" was "willing" in the eyes of the law, and failing that, lowering the age of consent to something that doesn't allow for the "victim" to be "willing."

"Willing victim" is some ******** weasel word bullshit, and you and I both know it.

I suppose, but, in order to be 'as good at English' as you seem to be, I'd need to get a mule to kick me in the head a couple of times.

Again, that the victim consented only comes in to the calculus when the victim is seeking a judicial or civil remedy for the negative effects of the criminal act they agreed to. This concept never came up in the criminal trial of the rapist because its not relevant; the statutory rape law sets an age, he is underage, so she was charged.

People need to remember that child support is not a 'criminal' issue, although it can have criminal issues if one fails to pay. No one breaks a law when you pay child support; you do if you don't pay it.

I don't find it a weasel word at all, but a valid concept. It makes no sense to, in the name of justice, generally afford people remedies for breaking the law. The line would wrap around the court house three times over in every town if drug users could bring breach of contract cases because their dealer sold them flour instead of crack, if illegal bookies could bring a civil action to recover payments from guys who didn't pay up their illegal gambling debt, etc.

What I personally take issue with is the application of the concept on this issue. Not because I think the kid is somehow innocent in this, but because I think its clear that the statutory rapist, as an adult, is clearly more wrong than the kid here who consented. She is so wrong in fact that, to discourage this wrong, we ought to none the less allow the courts to at least consider deny child support payments in some cases. Even if, ultimately, the only one suffering is the child, since that is who child support payments go to.

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