Raising the Dead.

[Times Of War]

CuAnnan

Times Of War

Quote:

So, this is going to be a bit far fetched, and so I need you all to suspend disbelief for a time and play along for this discussion.

Can't believe people can't read the first sentence of the thread.

We can.
But you may as well add "A wizard did it". Because what you've posted doesn't so much stretch suspension of disbelief as much as it requires a complete lack of critical thought.

What you have suggested is a mathematical impossibility.

Don't go on about mathematical possibilities. If you were to describe the universe springing out of nothing, or being made by an infinitely complex supreme being, a sane person would tell you it sounded impossible, and the only reason we come to grips with any explanation and accept it is because we are here seeing it.

Mathematically speaking it is possible the laws of physics will rewrite themselves at noon tomorrow. Insanely improbable, but possible.

Further, It's entirely possible that reality as we know it -is- a simulation.

My proposed discussion was less on the technical aspect and more on the "what do you think it would be like if we could bring back historical figures into the future. "

Personally, I'm looking forward to John Stewart interviewing Hitler and whether or not presidential term limits apply to people who have been dead before.

[CuAnnan]

Times Of War

Don't go on about mathematical possibilities. If you were to describe the universe springing out of nothing, or being made by an infinitely complex supreme being, a sane person would tell you it sounded impossible, and the only reason we come to grips with any explanation and accept it is because we are here seeing it.

No mathematician claims that.
No physicist claims the former either.

Times Of War

Mathematically speaking it is possible the laws of physics will rewrite themselves at noon tomorrow. Insanely improbable, but possible.

Do show me your mathematical proof for that.
Oh... wait, you can't.

Times Of War

Further, It's entirely possible that reality as we know it -is- a simulation.

Sure. I guess.
We're theoretically capable of simulating a universe similar enough to ours.
But it would not be ours.

[Times Of War]

CuAnnan

Do show me your mathematical proof for that.
Oh... wait, you can't.

As a matter of probability alone it is possible. The only reason laws and constants are considered such is that we have never observed them to change. If they do change, it is usually because of another force acting on something to make it appear they have changed.

However, we have no idea -why- laws and constants are the way they are. We don't have a clue why gravity isn't stronger or weaker, or why light has a near constant speed, or anything really. We have no clue why things are the way they are. It is possible that the laws of physics could simply change tomorrow at noon. Mathematically it is possible, even if very improbable.

[CuAnnan]

Times Of War

CuAnnan

Do show me your mathematical proof for that.
Oh... wait, you can't.

As a matter of probability alone it is possible. The only reason laws and constants are considered such is that we have never observed them to change. If they do change, it is usually because of another force acting on something to make it appear they have changed.

However, we have no idea -why- laws and constants are the way they are. We don't have a clue why gravity isn't stronger or weaker, or why light has a near constant speed, or anything really. We have no clue why things are the way they are. It is possible that the laws of physics could simply change tomorrow at noon. Mathematically it is possible, even if very improbable.

No it isn't.

Now that it has been demonstrated that we don't agree, since the extraordinary claim is yours, burden of proof requries you to prove your statement or withdraw it.

Pick one.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Atoms don't really have a memory to them, so you'd have to know the whole universe and everything that interacted with it to get an accurate representation of anything that occurred on earth, let alone anywhere.

[Aporeia]

The anima lies not in the body or its simple churning of fluids like everyone else, but in the movement of the mind. Halt the movement- and it will not be replaced. Simply rebuilding the brain will not reorchestrate the melody it once played. It will be reborn without memory, probably without even basic human thoughts built through a lifetime of growth and learning.

"Same" body, new mind, the soul remains intangible. It may as well be called a clone made with recycled parts. Even if it could be done, it would be vegetable.

[CuAnnan]

Suicidesoldier#1

Atoms don't really have a memory to them, so you'd have to know the whole universe and everything that interacted with it to get an accurate representation of anything that occurred on earth, let alone anywhere.

There is, as it was explained to me and I understand and remember said explanation, a theory that the quantum state of the universe at t=0 is manifesting in the macrostructure of the universe.

[The20]

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

Maybe, but I (personally) think that it's not a nature vs nurture. I think it's nature combined with nurture. The same person, means the exact same DNA, meaning basic genetic nature is still the same.

And again, I'm not just saying no Hitler clones. I'm also saying no clones of a whole bunch of people (infamous serial killers, mass murderers, genocidal people). If I was in charge of all this, I would make a NO CLONE list in advance.

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

Times Of War

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

First of all, bringing back Hitler might be one of the best things we could do, amongst other controversial people.

Second, you wouldn't have to educate them about their past. The method suggested would reassemble them atom for atom from just before their death. They would already have their memories in tact.

Chahklet

Why George Washington?

Just a combination of an easy example and a freedom boner.

Bringing back all the founding fathers to have them comment on how their country turned out would be interesting though.

You can't say for sure that they'd remember. Clones have the right to know their original's past, so they can avoid making the same mistakes.

And two, I'm not against controversial (note Nero was not someone I'm against cloning), I'm just smart enough to consider that history often repeats itself. Cloning Hitler could create a second Holocaust....

[The20]

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

Maybe, but I (personally) think that it's not a nature vs nurture. I think it's nature combined with nurture. The same person, means the exact same DNA, meaning basic genetic nature is still the same.

And again, I'm not just saying no Hitler clones. I'm also saying no clones of a whole bunch of people (infamous serial killers, mass murderers, genocidal people). If I was in charge of all this, I would make a NO CLONE list in advance.

Your genes may mean you have a predisposition towards certain traits (tetchy, patient, intelligent, whatever) but it doesn't predeterminate your way in life. Your upbringing and education as well as your surroundings affect you at least as much, if not more. To come back to Hitler, under different circumstances he might have been a solid, less crazy and genocidal politician. Or an artist that nobody took serious. Or something entirely different.

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

Maybe, but I (personally) think that it's not a nature vs nurture. I think it's nature combined with nurture. The same person, means the exact same DNA, meaning basic genetic nature is still the same.

And again, I'm not just saying no Hitler clones. I'm also saying no clones of a whole bunch of people (infamous serial killers, mass murderers, genocidal people). If I was in charge of all this, I would make a NO CLONE list in advance.

Your genes may mean you have a predisposition towards certain traits (tetchy, patient, intelligent, whatever) but it doesn't predeterminate your way in life. Your upbringing and education as well as your surroundings affect you at least as much, if not more. To come back to Hitler, under different circumstances me might have been a solid, less crazy and genocidal politician. Or an artist that nobody took serious. Or something entirely different.

You may be right, but I'd (and others) would rather not risk having history repeat itself literally on that one...

[The20]

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

Maybe, but I (personally) think that it's not a nature vs nurture. I think it's nature combined with nurture. The same person, means the exact same DNA, meaning basic genetic nature is still the same.

And again, I'm not just saying no Hitler clones. I'm also saying no clones of a whole bunch of people (infamous serial killers, mass murderers, genocidal people). If I was in charge of all this, I would make a NO CLONE list in advance.

Your genes may mean you have a predisposition towards certain traits (tetchy, patient, intelligent, whatever) but it doesn't predeterminate your way in life. Your upbringing and education as well as your surroundings affect you at least as much, if not more. To come back to Hitler, under different circumstances me might have been a solid, less crazy and genocidal politician. Or an artist that nobody took serious. Or something entirely different.

You may be right, but I'd (and others) would rather not risk having history repeat itself literally on that one...

Well, that's not likely to happen, even if he came back the exact same way. In fact i would argue Hitler being Hitler is exactly what would prevent it from happening these days. If you want to start the same thing again you need to distance yourself from Hitler as far as possible to delude people into believing all is well 'till it's way too late.

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

The20

shadowswhiskers13 -

Ground rules should include:

only cloning people,
NO cloning Hitler, Ted Bundy, or any one like them,

and finally, if we're gonna raise the dead through cloning, make sure they know their original's past.

Why not clone Hitler? It's not like his clone would automatically try to start WW3, or that more than a handful wackos would follow him for that matter.
You know, nature vs. nurture.

Maybe, but I (personally) think that it's not a nature vs nurture. I think it's nature combined with nurture. The same person, means the exact same DNA, meaning basic genetic nature is still the same.

And again, I'm not just saying no Hitler clones. I'm also saying no clones of a whole bunch of people (infamous serial killers, mass murderers, genocidal people). If I was in charge of all this, I would make a NO CLONE list in advance.

Your genes may mean you have a predisposition towards certain traits (tetchy, patient, intelligent, whatever) but it doesn't predeterminate your way in life. Your upbringing and education as well as your surroundings affect you at least as much, if not more. To come back to Hitler, under different circumstances me might have been a solid, less crazy and genocidal politician. Or an artist that nobody took serious. Or something entirely different.

You may be right, but I'd (and others) would rather not risk having history repeat itself literally on that one...

Well, that's not likely to happen, even if he came back the exact same way. In fact i would argue Hitler being Hitler is exactly what would prevent it from happening these days. If you want to start the same thing again you need to distance yourself from Hitler as far as possible to delude people into believing all is well 'till it's way too late.

It's difficult for anyone to distance themselves from any politician. And no matter what, someone would probably still listen.

[Glorious Leader Luna]

Times Of War

Quote:

So, this is going to be a bit far fetched, and so I need you all to suspend disbelief for a time and play along for this discussion.

Can't believe people can't read the first sentence of the thread.

But it's not far fetched it's impossible

If you want far fetched then use time travel what is at least theoretically possible.