"Fetuses are parasites, not people!"

After reading my post, do you believe there is any difference between a fetus and a baby?

Total Votes:

[ 0 ]

This poll closed on January 4, 2005.
No longer accepting new votes.

[Silverback Elemental]

Moniquill

We never argued whether a fetus is human; it very clearly IS. We argued personhood, which is a philosophical, not scientific debate.

And when babies can be grown in jars, abortion will no longer be an issue because nobody (barring issues of class, socioeconomic status, and availability) will ever have to be pregnant against thier will. The problem will arise in the argument of whether it's wise to allow every single conception to grow to viability, as this would cause the worlds population to increase beyond sustainable levels in under a generation.

So... we're sort of arguing against each other, but not entirely. I'm trying to say that the differences between babies and fetuses are so minute that they cannot be classified into human or property, while I believe that you're saying babies are humans and people, while fetuses are merely human.

Am I right?

[AlucardsMidianSlave]

before reading your post i believed there ws a difference

[Cats for Missiles]

SkiiRomora

Cats for Missiles

There are already enough kids without parents. Not all kids will get adopted. They just end up in foster homes and such.

This is all too true. There are many more children to be adopted (especially in todays world of ideals when it comes to sex, and especially in America) than parents who want to do the adopting. It's true that with the number of people using birth control (such as the pill or the patch, not condoms) going up, the fertility rate is going slowly and slightly down. However, this small decrease in fertility is nowhere near the increase of unwanted children being born. Do the math, big increase of unwanted children does not equal the small increase of infertile women.

3nodding
---------------

Sidenote: Umm...sorry Silverback Elemental, I think I kinda went way off topic. I was just kinda trying to give another argument besides the "fetuses are parasites" one.

[AlucardsMidianSlave]

most parents who adopt want babies.. not a child..

[k8iemay]

Quote:

You assume they didn't. Poor assumption. All contraceptives, even when used perfectly, have a failure rate. And lack of proper education leads to misuse, which further increases thier ineffectiveness.

hmmmm i know that they have a failure rate. As does most things but it is very very low...

Quote:

Ok, who are these people who are using a painful, invasive, risky, expensive, and socially charged surgical procedure RATHER than condoms as thier primary birth control method, and why do you want them adding to the gene pool?

Because they are still people and have a right to live...

Quote:

So what you're saying is that there's nothing morally wrong with creating a new human life as a form of punishment to parents who made an error? That pregnancy, childbirth, and in some cases parenting are acceptable forms of punishment for people who have made what is in your eyes a transgression?

I don't think that it's morally wrong. I think it's morally wrong to have an abortion but not to accept their respnsiblities, which is the punishment. It's severe but like everything else, it has to be handled properly.

Quote:

Normal people are just that, normal. For every good teacher there's a half-assed one. For every doctor working extra hours to provide good healthcare to low income families because he genuinely cares, there's an alcoholic used car salesman who hires illegle aliens under the table and pays them s**t because it saves him money. Not every life is special and magical. There's an equal chance of badness/goodness.

I know. But if they go down that road then so be it. But whilst a baby, they are still innocent. But everyone in this earth will have been good and bad at different times.

Quote:

Wow. That makes such a difference. A medical anomaly that proably resulted in a severely developmentally challenged human that may never be able to exist and function normally without a lot of medical intervention should ALWAYS be used as the standard by which all things are judged!

He didn't. He's about 10 now and is completely 'normal'.

[Moniquill]

k8iemay

No. I think that they should accept their responsibilities and look after the child how it should be looked after or think about adoption.

Babies are adopted quicker because 'most' couples want babies and not children who are older...

example: I was born unwanted but ya know, i'm still glad that i'm here.

But a fetus isn't a child. Why do you assume that abortion isn't a responsible solution to the problem? That it's somehow more responsible to create a new human eing that you don't want and can't care for?

And if there are no babies in the system, then these desperate parents will have to adopt older kids or live childless. If we stop providing babies like good little broodmares, life will improve for existing impoverished youth.

[Silverback Elemental]

Cats for Missiles

SkiiRomora

Cats for Missiles

There are already enough kids without parents. Not all kids will get adopted. They just end up in foster homes and such.

This is all too true. There are many more children to be adopted (especially in todays world of ideals when it comes to sex, and especially in America) than parents who want to do the adopting. It's true that with the number of people using birth control (such as the pill or the patch, not condoms) going up, the fertility rate is going slowly and slightly down. However, this small decrease in fertility is nowhere near the increase of unwanted children being born. Do the math, big increase of unwanted children does not equal the small increase of infertile women.

3nodding
---------------

Sidenote: Umm...sorry Silverback Elemental, I think I kinda went way off topic. I was just kinda trying to give another argument besides the "fetuses are parasites" one.

It's quite alright- you're just as welcome to post in here as I am, as long as it's somewhat related to the topic.

[k8iemay]

Quote:

Again...I honestly think that they should not be parents. It's more likely that in that situation they would NOT look after the child how it should be looked after.

My best friend was an 'accident' I can't imagine life without her, but it is useless to think about that because she was born. If she was never born in the first place, I wouldn't have known her, and wouldn't have missed her.

She lived with her mother until her mom was arrested. She was sent to child haven, but by that time she was older. She lived in a foster home for awhile.

She was adopted at about age 8. And, her adoptive mom constantly tells her she is ungrateful. It's not like she could help being born to the mother she had, or anything. She has wished she was never born. It makes me depressed to think that she feels that way.

Sometimes, when it has been really bad...I have wondered if she should never have been born. But, I am selfish and feel that I need her in my life. And, I hate even thinking that, but I have at times. Her life hasn't exactly been easy. It's been really hard.

*sighs*
example: I tried to kill myself 2 weeks ago. No one knew till now and no one would have really suspected and obviously it didn't work. *wow kate state the obvious! rolleyes * but thinking about it, i'm glad that it didn't work cos if it did then I wouldn't be here now would I. There is more than one reason why I tried to kill myselfand i dont really want to discuss them on a message board.

But still, i don't agree with abortion and at this point I have to leave. Rents are kicking me off.
Bye x

[Moniquill]

Silverback Elemental

I may have missed the point, but let me try again. In a few years or decades, we will have the technology to let fetuses live outside the womb before they are ready to be born. They're not babies yet, because they have not been born, so they are still fetuses. Why would the ability to live outside the mother affect the humanity of it? The fetus itself would not change- so how does it go from property to human?

It doesn't. Once a woman removed the fetus form the body, she would lose all proprietary rights, unless she was using said technology to continue a wanted pregnancy and kept legal jurisdiction over the fetus.

[Cats for Missiles]

Silverback Elemental

the reason why you could kill a fetus applies to the baby as well, why are you able to kill one but not the other?

Yes. It is a pretty stupid argument. I agree that a baby is not all that different from a fetus. However, my argument is this: There is no reason why the one aborting should not have killed it before it was born. They have no excuse for having the child just to kill it. er...not sure if I'm explaining well...^^;;

meh.. just ignore my pathetic attempt to be on-topic.

[Nitrous_Oxide]

Moniquill

But a fetus isn't a child. Why do you assume that abortion isn't a responsible solution to the problem? That it's somehow more responsible to create a new human eing that you don't want and can't care for?

And if there are no babies in the system, then these desperate parents will have to adopt older kids or live childless. If we stop providing babies like good little broodmares, life will improve for existing impoverished youth.

Do we even DESERVE to live as a species when we are willing to kill full fledged humans so so girls and guys can have sex with whoever they want? This very method you are proposing as a means of population control makes us NOT WORTHY of even existing.

[Moniquill]

Silverback Elemental

Moniquill

We never argued whether a fetus is human; it very clearly IS. We argued personhood, which is a philosophical, not scientific debate.

And when babies can be grown in jars, abortion will no longer be an issue because nobody (barring issues of class, socioeconomic status, and availability) will ever have to be pregnant against thier will. The problem will arise in the argument of whether it's wise to allow every single conception to grow to viability, as this would cause the worlds population to increase beyond sustainable levels in under a generation.

So... we're sort of arguing against each other, but not entirely. I'm trying to say that the differences between babies and fetuses are so minute that they cannot be classified into human or property, while I believe that you're saying babies are humans and people, while fetuses are merely human.

Am I right?

In essence, yes.

[Elvendra]

Quote:

Quote:

You assume they didn't. Poor assumption. All contraceptives, even when used perfectly, have a failure rate. And lack of proper education leads to misuse, which further increases thier ineffectiveness.

hmmmm i know that they have a failure rate. As does most things but it is very very low...

If you get hit by a train then the medical staff in the hospital will refuse to treat you because the chance of you being hit was very low. Doesn't seem fair does it?

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, who are these people who are using a painful, invasive, risky, expensive, and socially charged surgical procedure RATHER than condoms as thier primary birth control method, and why do you want them adding to the gene pool?

Because they are still people and have a right to live...

Whether a fetus is a person or not is a matter of opinion. Personhood is not a scientific concept. Just because you have the opinion that fetuses are people does not mean those that disagree with you have to live by your standards.

Quote:

Quote:

So what you're saying is that there's nothing morally wrong with creating a new human life as a form of punishment to parents who made an error? That pregnancy, childbirth, and in some cases parenting are acceptable forms of punishment for people who have made what is in your eyes a transgression?

I don't think that it's morally wrong. I think it's morally wrong to have an abortion but not to accept their respnsiblities, which is the punishment. It's severe but like everything else, it has to be handled properly.

Since when have you been judge, jury and executioner?

Quote:

Quote:

Normal people are just that, normal. For every good teacher there's a half-assed one. For every doctor working extra hours to provide good healthcare to low income families because he genuinely cares, there's an alcoholic used car salesman who hires illegle aliens under the table and pays them s**t because it saves him money. Not every life is special and magical. There's an equal chance of badness/goodness.

I know. But if they go down that road then so be it. But whilst a baby, they are still innocent. But everyone in this earth will have been good and bad at different times.

Yes, an innocent baby. Since when have innocent babies deserved to be punishment for people whose birth control failed? Do give babies so little value that they should be used as punishment? You people make me sick.

Quote:

Quote:

Wow. That makes such a difference. A medical anomaly that proably resulted in a severely developmentally challenged human that may never be able to exist and function normally without a lot of medical intervention should ALWAYS be used as the standard by which all things are judged!

He didn't. He's about 10 now and is completely 'normal'.

Well, good for him.

[Cats for Missiles]

k8iemay

*sighs*
example: I tried to kill myself 2 weeks ago. No one knew till now and no one would have really suspected and obviously it didn't work. *wow kate state the obvious! rolleyes * but thinking about it, i'm glad that it didn't work cos if it did then I wouldn't be here now would I. There is more than one reason why I tried to kill myselfand i dont really want to discuss them on a message board.

But still, i don't agree with abortion and at this point I have to leave. Rents are kicking me off.
Bye x

Not really sure what to say. I'm glad that you didn't commit suicide, and I am sure that the ones who care about you are glad too.

My friend also attempted suicide. I don't think she realized how much it would affect my life. Because I know she would never intentionally hurt me.

Bye.

[Moniquill]

k8iemay

Quote:

You assume they didn't. Poor assumption. All contraceptives, even when used perfectly, have a failure rate. And lack of proper education leads to misuse, which further increases thier ineffectiveness.

hmmmm i know that they have a failure rate. As does most things but it is very very low...

low = still in existence. You don't know what the circumstances are surrounding every unintended pregnancy, so why should you judge ANY?

k8iemay

Because they are still people and have a right to live...

Why? When did life become a right? And if life is a right, why does it extend only to people? Not to mention that we've all spent half the thread dancing around the concept that personhood is a philosophical notion, not a sicentific one, and there's no way to prove whether or not fetii posess it.

k8iemay

Quote:

So what you're saying is that there's nothing morally wrong with creating a new human life as a form of punishment to parents who made an error? That pregnancy, childbirth, and in some cases parenting are acceptable forms of punishment for people who have made what is in your eyes a transgression?

k8iemay

I don't think that it's morally wrong. I think it's morally wrong to have an abortion but not to accept their respnsiblities, which is the punishment. It's severe but like everything else, it has to be handled properly.

And I disagree with you. I think it's more wrong to create a child that you don't want and can't care for than it is to destroy the potential before it becomes a child.

k8iemay

Quote:

Normal people are just that, normal. For every good teacher there's a half-assed one. For every doctor working extra hours to provide good healthcare to low income families because he genuinely cares, there's an alcoholic used car salesman who hires illegle aliens under the table and pays them s**t because it saves him money. Not every life is special and magical. There's an equal chance of badness/goodness.

I know. But if they go down that road then so be it. But whilst a baby, they are still innocent. But everyone in this earth will have been good and bad at different times.

Ah, so you believe in the concept of innocense. And yet you seem to have some belief in fate, as you used it as an argument, saying that an aborted fetus might have been the one to cure cancer...

And since every single human born has the potential for both good and bad, and all are equal, why is it wrong to prevent any singular one form being?

k8iemay

Quote:

Wow. That makes such a difference. A medical anomaly that proably resulted in a severely developmentally challenged human that may never be able to exist and function normally without a lot of medical intervention should ALWAYS be used as the standard by which all things are judged!

He didn't. He's about 10 now and is completely 'normal'.

Evidence?