Question about DHS needing 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition

[agrab0ekim]

I believe, and might be mistaken, that the ICJ made it clear, 20 some years ago, that a hollow-point is not the same as a dum-dum, mainly due to the intent in design, changes, and the like. Further, since Dum-dum are not the same as a hollow-point, it is arguable that we never enabled hollow-point bans, thus not international law.
I will check in class later (int. crim law, same prof for all of my int. law, and we did dum-dums so will ask)

[Ame Yuki Kaze]

Perhaps they think someone is going to invade our shores.

[zaptar13]

Glorious Leader Luna

AvenirLegacy

What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.

The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Hmm, well there's still enough time for breakfast before they get here.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

[Keltoi Samurai]

Yami no Hitokiri

Perhaps they think someone is going to invade our shores.

that would mean they were preparing for warfare, and thus hollowpoints would be illegal.

Hague 1899 specifically forbade expanding rounds, which hollowpoints are.

[Keltoi Samurai]

agrab0ekim

I believe, and might be mistaken, that the ICJ made it clear, 20 some years ago, that a hollow-point is not the same as a dum-dum, mainly due to the intent in design, changes, and the like. Further, since Dum-dum are not the same as a hollow-point, it is arguable that we never enabled hollow-point bans, thus not international law.
I will check in class later (int. crim law, same prof for all of my int. law, and we did dum-dums so will ask)

the first "Dum Dum" was a case of the British stripping the tips off the jackets of standard jacketed rounds. they got their name from the Dum Dum Arsenal, which was a munitions plant near Calcutta, but closer to a town called Dum Dum ( hence the name ).

these first "dum dums" ( closer to modern "Jacketed Soft-Points" than modern hollowpoints ) were ineffective, though, because the jacket never covered the base of the round, meaning the slug would fire through the jacket, leaving the jacket as additional fouling in the weapon.

the solution, as it turned out, was to encase the entire round in a copper jacket, and include a hollow in the tip of the round, which would cause it to expand. these, too, were called "dum dums," even though they were not made at the Dum Dum Arsenal, instead being manufactured back in Britain. the name Dum Dum had just stuck as a general nickname for expanding rounds.

the Hague Convention of 1899 did not ban "Dum Dums" by name, it banned expanding bullets, and was a response to the British using Mark III and Mark IV Dum Dum rounds, which were of the newer design, with a hollow carved out at the point of the bullet.

in the end, though, the decision to ban expanding ammo was made off of faulty data, bad science and propaganda, but it was made, and is legally binding, and was brought about as a response to a round that had a copper jacket and a hollowed-out point. how a round with a copper jacket and a hollowed-out point could be seen as anything other than a jacketed hollowpoint is beyond me, but you seem to be trying to make a distinction where none exists, and furthermore are doing so in an effort to say a law doesn't apply because one's a "hollowpoint" and one's a "dum dum," when the law in fact bans expanding bullets ( calling them "expanding bullets" in the wording, rather than just saying "dum dums" and leaving it at that ), of which the hollowpoint most assuredly is, while "dum dum" is just a slang term for an expanding bullet.

sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_%281899_and_1907%29
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
http://www.thegunzone.com/dum-dum.html

[Keltoi Samurai]

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

Source is OP.

"This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles."


Pretty awesome when you think about it.

More lethal, more accurate, less likely to over penetrate and ricochet, it's great. Also with better gunpowder some of may burn in the barrel spreading out the load which will make the recoil more manageable.


With lots and lots of training (which hopefully they will train more with all those bullets) that helps too; all they need is lasers and they'll be good to go.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

Source is OP.

"This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles."


Pretty awesome when you think about it.

More lethal, more accurate, less likely to over penetrate and ricochet, it's great. Also with better gunpowder some of may burn in the barrel spreading out the load which will make the recoil more manageable.


With lots and lots of training (which hopefully they will train more with all those bullets) that helps too; all they need is lasers and they'll be good to go.

and not any one word of that do they use to talk about using it to replace an existing stockpile of hardnose.

"buying hollowpoint" does not necessarily mean "replacing hardnose," you see, as they could be buying hollowpoint to replace rounds of hollowpoints that they had already spent. I need a source on their previous use of ball before your statement about "replacing their arsenal" with hollowpoints makes any sense within the context of this discussion.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

Source is OP.

"This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles."


Pretty awesome when you think about it.

More lethal, more accurate, less likely to over penetrate and ricochet, it's great. Also with better gunpowder some of may burn in the barrel spreading out the load which will make the recoil more manageable.


With lots and lots of training (which hopefully they will train more with all those bullets) that helps too; all they need is lasers and they'll be good to go.

and not any one word of that do they use to talk about using it to replace an existing stockpile of hardnose.

"buying hollowpoint" does not necessarily mean "replacing hardnose," you see, as they could be buying hollowpoint to replace rounds of hollowpoints that they had already spent. I need a source on their previous use of ball before your statement about "replacing their arsenal" with hollowpoints makes any sense within the context of this discussion.

Obviously they're replacing old stock. And boat tail hollow point sniper rounds are kind of new, so it would have to be with the last few years.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

Source is OP.

"This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles."


Pretty awesome when you think about it.

More lethal, more accurate, less likely to over penetrate and ricochet, it's great. Also with better gunpowder some of may burn in the barrel spreading out the load which will make the recoil more manageable.


With lots and lots of training (which hopefully they will train more with all those bullets) that helps too; all they need is lasers and they'll be good to go.

and not any one word of that do they use to talk about using it to replace an existing stockpile of hardnose.

"buying hollowpoint" does not necessarily mean "replacing hardnose," you see, as they could be buying hollowpoint to replace rounds of hollowpoints that they had already spent. I need a source on their previous use of ball before your statement about "replacing their arsenal" with hollowpoints makes any sense within the context of this discussion.

Obviously they're replacing old stock. And boat tail hollow point sniper rounds are kind of new, so it would have to be with the last few years.

obviously they are replacing old stock. that is not in dispute.

why, though, do you assume that the old stock was ball?

also, the boat-tail hollowpoint may be new, but the hollowpoint isn't, and even if the old rounds weren't boat-tailed, that says literally nothing as to whether or not they were hollowpoints.

[Ranallo Jenner]

1.4 billion rounds of ammunition would come out to about what, $300-400 million? And that's just for a single agency.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Keltoi Samurai

Suicidesoldier#1

Hollow points prevent civilian causalities by not over penetrating and being less prone to ricochet.

You're concerned they're replacing their 20 year inventory with more accurate and safer rounds?

I see no indication that they're replacing older FMJs with newer JHPs. care to source that?

Source is OP.

"This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles."


Pretty awesome when you think about it.

More lethal, more accurate, less likely to over penetrate and ricochet, it's great. Also with better gunpowder some of may burn in the barrel spreading out the load which will make the recoil more manageable.


With lots and lots of training (which hopefully they will train more with all those bullets) that helps too; all they need is lasers and they'll be good to go.

and not any one word of that do they use to talk about using it to replace an existing stockpile of hardnose.

"buying hollowpoint" does not necessarily mean "replacing hardnose," you see, as they could be buying hollowpoint to replace rounds of hollowpoints that they had already spent. I need a source on their previous use of ball before your statement about "replacing their arsenal" with hollowpoints makes any sense within the context of this discussion.

Obviously they're replacing old stock. And boat tail hollow point sniper rounds are kind of new, so it would have to be with the last few years.

obviously they are replacing old stock. that is not in dispute.

why, though, do you assume that the old stock was ball?

also, the boat-tail hollowpoint may be new, but the hollowpoint isn't, and even if the old rounds weren't boat-tailed, that says literally nothing as to whether or not they were hollowpoints.

They're prob not as GOOD hollow points, which is stuff that's starting to take off, not new, per say.

But idk, you could look it up. xp


What I know is that it's a relatively new trend, and that there are newer stuff everyone is in to (.40's, certain types of hollow points etc.) and since everything else seems to fit the criteria, it's likely to be those bullets, which weren't even popular until a while ago. xp

But one thing you could look into is, how many members were there in 2004, compared to now in 2012?

[Where Pretty Lies Perish]

I don't know, but I'd feel a lot safer having the government get sole access to firearms, and things like this just prove me point. rolleyes

[agrab0ekim]

Keltoi Samurai

agrab0ekim

I believe, and might be mistaken, that the ICJ made it clear, 20 some years ago, that a hollow-point is not the same as a dum-dum, mainly due to the intent in design, changes, and the like. Further, since Dum-dum are not the same as a hollow-point, it is arguable that we never enabled hollow-point bans, thus not international law.
I will check in class later (int. crim law, same prof for all of my int. law, and we did dum-dums so will ask)

the first "Dum Dum" was a case of the British stripping the tips off the jackets of standard jacketed rounds. they got their name from the Dum Dum Arsenal, which was a munitions plant near Calcutta, but closer to a town called Dum Dum ( hence the name ).

these first "dum dums" ( closer to modern "Jacketed Soft-Points" than modern hollowpoints ) were ineffective, though, because the jacket never covered the base of the round, meaning the slug would fire through the jacket, leaving the jacket as additional fouling in the weapon.

the solution, as it turned out, was to encase the entire round in a copper jacket, and include a hollow in the tip of the round, which would cause it to expand. these, too, were called "dum dums," even though they were not made at the Dum Dum Arsenal, instead being manufactured back in Britain. the name Dum Dum had just stuck as a general nickname for expanding rounds.

the Hague Convention of 1899 did not ban "Dum Dums" by name, it banned expanding bullets, and was a response to the British using Mark III and Mark IV Dum Dum rounds, which were of the newer design, with a hollow carved out at the point of the bullet.

in the end, though, the decision to ban expanding ammo was made off of faulty data, bad science and propaganda, but it was made, and is legally binding, and was brought about as a response to a round that had a copper jacket and a hollowed-out point. how a round with a copper jacket and a hollowed-out point could be seen as anything other than a jacketed hollowpoint is beyond me, but you seem to be trying to make a distinction where none exists, and furthermore are doing so in an effort to say a law doesn't apply because one's a "hollowpoint" and one's a "dum dum," when the law in fact bans expanding bullets ( calling them "expanding bullets" in the wording, rather than just saying "dum dums" and leaving it at that ), of which the hollowpoint most assuredly is, while "dum dum" is just a slang term for an expanding bullet.

sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
http://www.thegunzone.com/dum-dum.html

So I checked, and it looks like it actually might be arguable - currently, the ICJ allows hollow points in non-wars (peacekeeping), as they find them different than dumdums (not designed to break up and damage like crazy). That said, those are case-by-case, and the ICJ has no precedent, so I have no idea what this means in war
i.e. Hollowpoints are banned, but the intent was to not cover that type of ammo, so it might not be enforceable