Question about DHS needing 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Keltoi Samurai

Old Blue Collar Joe

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.

even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

Strangely, this is a comment on the original 450 milion rounds, which was a FIVE YEAR supply. Now they suddenly need this many more?

1,300 rounds a year per person isn't a lot, but it's not a little, either. in fact, that's right about where I'd peg any figure on "necessary ammunition" for someone in such a field.

and since it's not being bought all at once, there goes my "backdoor ban on hollowpoints" idea, too

BUT...this is written BEFORE they upped to order to over an additional billion plus rounds, Keltoi. This is in addition to that.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Keltoi Samurai

Old Blue Collar Joe

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

Strangely, this is a comment on the original 450 milion rounds, which was a FIVE YEAR supply. Now they suddenly need this many more?

1,300 rounds a year per person isn't a lot, but it's not a little, either. in fact, that's right about where I'd peg any figure on "necessary ammunition" for someone in such a field.

and since it's not being bought all at once, there goes my "backdoor ban on hollowpoints" idea, too

BUT...this is written BEFORE they upped to order to over an additional billion plus rounds, Keltoi. This is in addition to that.

I understand that. I was trying to impart a meaning of "it looks like they had a perfectly defensible, logical order for ammunition, then they went and scrapped that in favor of something ******** loony."

sorry for not making that clearer.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

It's really not that big of a deal.

They buy in bulk, it's cheaper.


Buying ammo doesn't suddenly make someone likely to kill innocent people.

Out of anyone, gun owners should know that.


Plus supposedly it's like really good boat tail hollow point sniper ammo or something.

Sounds good to me.


Maybe they're stepping up training.

You have to go to the firing range every day and fire 20 rounds, or once a week with 100 or so. Would certainly help preventing accidental shots. Granted that would go through a gun once every one or two years but if it's part of their profession oh well.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.

even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

It's nothing sinister at all. There was a similar fracas about SSA having guns and ammo. Special agents got work to do, need guns to do it.

it's just the ammo figures are all wrong, here. I'm doing the math, here, based on the figures I've gotten, it seems that there are between 65,000 and 70,000 people this is buying ammo for, according to this guy, talking about the same agency wanting to buy 450 million rounds, instead.. if we wanna be generous, we use the larger figure.

so, that equals out to 20,000 rounds per person. in a five year stretch, that's 4,000 rounds a year, or just shy of 11 rounds a day, per person.

that's a lot of ammo.

[Ryo Tarn]

Aryun Taguhi

Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?

My guess is for the security of the homeland.

[Major Lima Charlie]

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.

even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

It's nothing sinister at all. There was a similar fracas about SSA having guns and ammo. Special agents got work to do, need guns to do it.

it's just the ammo figures are all wrong, here. I'm doing the math, here, based on the figures I've gotten, it seems that there are between 65,000 and 70,000 people this is buying ammo for, according to this guy, talking about the same agency wanting to buy 450 million rounds, instead.. if we wanna be generous, we use the larger figure.

so, that equals out to 20,000 rounds per person. in a five year stretch, that's 4,000 rounds a year, or just shy of 11 rounds a day, per person.

that's a lot of ammo.

I've done a thousand rounds in only a couple of trips to a firing range before.

[My Dog Mr. Kitty]

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.

even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

It's nothing sinister at all. There was a similar fracas about SSA having guns and ammo. Special agents got work to do, need guns to do it.

it's just the ammo figures are all wrong, here. I'm doing the math, here, based on the figures I've gotten, it seems that there are between 65,000 and 70,000 people this is buying ammo for, according to this guy, talking about the same agency wanting to buy 450 million rounds, instead.. if we wanna be generous, we use the larger figure.

so, that equals out to 20,000 rounds per person. in a five year stretch, that's 4,000 rounds a year, or just shy of 11 rounds a day, per person.

that's a lot of ammo.

That's really not that much

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Keltoi Samurai

Riviera de la Mancha

Glorious Leader Luna

AvenirLegacy

What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.

The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Yeah, someones doesn't seem to know a whole lot about DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/our-mission

Google. It's not just for porn, you know.

wait . . . it's not?

I know right? I said the same thing, but, I promise you, its as true as I say.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Glorious Leader Luna

Riviera de la Mancha

Glorious Leader Luna

AvenirLegacy

What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.

The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Yeah, someones doesn't seem to know a whole lot about DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/our-mission

Google. It's not just for porn, you know.

Quote:

The vision of homeland security is to ensure a homeland that is safe, secure, and resilient against terrorism and other hazards where American interests, aspirations, and way of life can thrive.

terrorism is not just done by foreigners you know.

Yes, that is correct. Your point?

Your initial argument was an 'if, then' statement- If DHS is buying this ammo, then it will be used on American citizens'. The express mission of the DHS, if you bothered to read all of it, includes alot of activities which put it in contact with foreigners. Thus, not only is DHS not an interior ministry, there is nothing necessarily true to your statement that DHS must use the ammo on civilians. It is only one possibility that it may be used on civilians, as well as undocumented persons, drug traffickers, sex slave traffickers, and foreign terrorists in the US. If your big beef is the ammo may be used on civilians, then I question why you don't seem to have an issue when city police departments purchase ammo as well. This is especially offensive to your position, as its almost guaranteed that that ammo if used on the beat will be almost exclusively on citizens.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Keltoi Samurai

Major Lima Charlie

Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.

even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.

What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.

actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though

It's nothing sinister at all. There was a similar fracas about SSA having guns and ammo. Special agents got work to do, need guns to do it.

it's just the ammo figures are all wrong, here. I'm doing the math, here, based on the figures I've gotten, it seems that there are between 65,000 and 70,000 people this is buying ammo for, according to this guy, talking about the same agency wanting to buy 450 million rounds, instead.. if we wanna be generous, we use the larger figure.

so, that equals out to 20,000 rounds per person. in a five year stretch, that's 4,000 rounds a year, or just shy of 11 rounds a day, per person.

that's a lot of ammo.

'Alot' is often a matter of interpretation.

[Tuah]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Aryun Taguhi

Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?

Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.

Any guess as to how much money that ammunition alone costs?

[Plata Plomo y Sangre]

Glorious Leader Luna

AvenirLegacy

What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.

The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Lolwut? It's a cabinet department created in the wake of the September 11th attacks. Along with responding to man made and natural disasters, it's PRIMARY objective is protecting the U.S against terrorism, both foreign and domestic.

Yeah, couldn't imagine why those people would need weapons and ammunition.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Tuah

Old Blue Collar Joe

Aryun Taguhi

Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?

Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.

Any guess as to how much money that ammunition alone costs?

Average retail for Federal, which is who usually makes fed ammo? .44 per round of .40 caliber. So...you figure 1.95 billion rounds? (Remember, nowhere has it been said that they are just adding to the original order, this is a new order) you're talking just a hair under a billion dollars.
And Tac, while they may shoot, they qualify twice a year, and they don't buy the practice ammo for their agents in that quantity at all.
This is just an unheard of number of rounds for a place with 188,000 agents.

[Keltoi Samurai]

Riviera de la Mancha

'Alot' is often a matter of interpretation.

actually, it's not.

it's a big hairy thing that meows.



this is the Alot.

[Glorious Leader Luna]

Riviera de la Mancha

Yes, that is correct. Your point?

Your initial argument was an 'if, then' statement- If DHS is buying this ammo, then it will be used on American citizens'. The express mission of the DHS, if you bothered to read all of it, includes alot of activities which put it in contact with foreigners. Thus, not only is DHS not an interior ministry, there is nothing necessarily true to your statement that DHS must use the ammo on civilians. It is only one possibility that it may be used on civilians, as well as undocumented persons, drug traffickers, sex slave traffickers, and foreign terrorists in the US. If your big beef is the ammo may be used on civilians, then I question why you don't seem to have an issue when city police departments purchase ammo as well. This is especially offensive to your position, as its almost guaranteed that that ammo if used on the beat will be almost exclusively on citizens.

Upping the order from 450 milion rounds to well over a billion rounds

Implies that they are planing for something larger than what they Normally do.

Of course usage on civilians is interpreting that they are civilians

if Mass riots happen and they go violent (in a nation where Man plus Dog is armed)

then they are using the ammo on civilians who are also shooting back at them.