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What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Yeah, someones doesn't seem to know a whole lot about DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/our-mission

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Quote:
The vision of homeland security is to ensure a homeland that is safe, secure, and resilient against terrorism and other hazards where American interests, aspirations, and way of life can thrive.


terrorism is not just done by foreigners you know.


Not anymore it isn't. I mean it isn't like 911 (which was a terrorist attack executed by foreign terrorists on United States soil) amped up the whole terrorism craze to absurd proportions or anything.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

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What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Except if they start shooting civilians, then that would be an atrocity.


not necessarily. hollowpoints are widely used as police carry rounds due to the reduced risk of overpenetration. rounds stay put in what they're shot at, means people behind the target are at reduced ( never eliminated ) risk.

if they're expecting to use them against violent criminals, then arguably, they are acting in our interests.

of course, if they're getting ready to create new classes of violent criminals, we may have something to worry about.

likewise, if they've decided to start shooting first and analyzing threat later, we should most assuredly be concerned.

as has been said, it does seem like a lot of ammo, but I'd really rather see how this year's acquisitions stack up against last year's, the year before that, etc, not to mention an accounting of rounds purchased versus rounds used. for at least a couple of those years.

it could just be a case where they've routinely bought 7,000 rounds per employee, armed or not, for decades, and this is just the first time anyone's called 'em on it.
Keltoi Samurai
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AvenirLegacy
What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Except if they start shooting civilians, then that would be an atrocity.


not necessarily. hollowpoints are widely used as police carry rounds due to the reduced risk of overpenetration. rounds stay put in what they're shot at, means people behind the target are at reduced ( never eliminated ) risk.

if they're expecting to use them against violent criminals, then arguably, they are acting in our interests.

of course, if they're getting ready to create new classes of violent criminals, we may have something to worry about.

likewise, if they've decided to start shooting first and analyzing threat later, we should most assuredly be concerned.

as has been said, it does seem like a lot of ammo, but I'd really rather see how this year's acquisitions stack up against last year's, the year before that, etc, not to mention an accounting of rounds purchased versus rounds used. for at least a couple of those years.

it could just be a case where they've routinely bought 7,000 rounds per employee, armed or not, for decades, and this is just the first time anyone's called 'em on it.

All I need you to do is read this.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

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1) Target Practice;
2) Drug cartels are expanding (WINNER);
3) Prepping for war in the ME;
4) Prepping for war with China/Russia;
297934729379237434324) Civil war prep


1) 7,444 rounds per employee, armed or not, is simply too many to be target practice unless we're submitting our entire DHS as competition shooters

2) the only option you listed that makes any sense.

the rest are flat-out contradicted by the Hague Convention of 1899, where it was decided that hollowpoints are a no-no for war.

has anyone yet asked if it might have something to do with limiting supply?

y'know, reduce the availability of hollowpoints to civilians to make self-defense shootings more dangerous to those not involved in the situation? we recently had a whole lot of s**t go down over Stand Your Ground laws, and I'm wondering if this might not be a way to try and force folk into having to use ball ammo ( more likely to overpenetrate, and thus affect things behind the target ), so that they can try and argue that SYG poses too much risk to the community.

it'd be a roundabout way of doing things, but they've tried to ban hollowpoints for decades now, using whatever propaganda and even outright lies ( am I the only one who remembers when they seriously tried to say Black Talons were "Armor Piercing hollowpoints? " ), maybe this is a way to try and impliment a back-door ban?
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

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Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.
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Keltoi Samurai
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AvenirLegacy
What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Except if they start shooting civilians, then that would be an atrocity.


not necessarily. hollowpoints are widely used as police carry rounds due to the reduced risk of overpenetration. rounds stay put in what they're shot at, means people behind the target are at reduced ( never eliminated ) risk.

if they're expecting to use them against violent criminals, then arguably, they are acting in our interests.

of course, if they're getting ready to create new classes of violent criminals, we may have something to worry about.

likewise, if they've decided to start shooting first and analyzing threat later, we should most assuredly be concerned.

as has been said, it does seem like a lot of ammo, but I'd really rather see how this year's acquisitions stack up against last year's, the year before that, etc, not to mention an accounting of rounds purchased versus rounds used. for at least a couple of those years.

it could just be a case where they've routinely bought 7,000 rounds per employee, armed or not, for decades, and this is just the first time anyone's called 'em on it.

All I need you to do is read this.


we're both arguing the same side, here.

my comment was it's not atrocity if the people being shot are violent criminals. that link then goes on to explain about an attitude of "shooting first and analyzing threat later," which is something I said specifically as being where preparedness and defense stops being reasonable and starts being war on one's own subjects.

we do, admittedly, have a history as a nation not willing to hesitate to commit atrocity, I'd just rather wait to see that they haven't learned a lesson about shooting unarmed civilians en masse than to just assume that they haven't and holding them accountable for atrocities they've yet to commit.

basically, I'm asking if they've ever bought this much ammo per person before and how much of it got used in years past, in order to see if this is a new thing, or if they've just routinely bought more than they can ever hope to shoot. this could easily be a case of incompetence, not having a reasonable estimation of how much ammo they go through in a year, and just affixing the first big number they think of.

on an unrelated note: does anyone else see the humor of J. Edgar Hoover telling Nixon that just maybe, this Huston Plan goes too far?

I mean, really? the voice of reason was J. Edgar "I AM THE LAW" Hoover? when J. Edgar Hoover is telling you you've done gone overboard on violating people's rights to privacy, that's usually a sign that you're a Superman Villain.
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Keltoi Samurai
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What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


International law since the 19th Century has prohibited us from going out a-viking with hollowpoints, meaning only civilian shooters and police forces can use them, not military, which means they cannot be using them for conqueration


Damn you Link Samurai and your reason! xp
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Major Lima Charlie
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Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

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What? We're Americans. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them! We need ammo.


The DHS is an interior ministry

thus if that ammo is going to be used it's going to be used on US civilians

it's likely they are planing for mass riots or something to that effect.

Yeah, someones doesn't seem to know a whole lot about DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/our-mission

Google. It's not just for porn, you know.


wait . . . it's not?
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Old Blue Collar Joe
Aryun Taguhi
Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.

burning_eyes So I am not crazy in thinking this is ridiculous? This is freaky..

Why is it freaky?


MTV had a good commercial depicting this situation. At the end of the commercial it said : "The holocaust happened to people like us".

I can tell you've never served in the military, or passed history class.

How's that "Change" working out for ya?
What, a governmental agency buying ammunition automatically means they're going to start killing thousands of civilians?
You're jumping to conclusions

And simply because my first thought isn't "Well clearly they're going to kill millions", I'm stupid?
No, I haven't served in the military, but I grew up in a military family. Father, Air Force officer for 20 years. My brother, Air Force officer for four years now. Training on the KC-130 right now
You're jumping to conclusions

What, you think I voted for Obama because I'm not jumping to unnecessary conclusions? This is my first presidential election I can vote in, and I'm voting Libertarian
You're jumping to conclusions

And anyways, I have guns. And ammunition. And I know how to use them. If the Department of Homeland Security wants to come and try to take me prisoner, or whatever the hell you're imagining them doing, bring it on
Do you honestly think they could do something like this without the military's aid?
You're jumping to conclusions
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

Devoted Explorer

Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Old Blue Collar Joe
Aryun Taguhi
Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

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Major Lima Charlie
Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Old Blue Collar Joe
Aryun Taguhi
Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.


actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though
Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Old Blue Collar Joe
Aryun Taguhi
Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.


actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though


Strangely, this is a comment on the original 450 milion rounds, which was a FIVE YEAR supply. Now they suddenly need this many more?
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

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Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Keltoi Samurai
Major Lima Charlie
Old Blue Collar Joe
Aryun Taguhi
Why does the Department of Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
link
link
I have never heard of hollow point bullets being used in target practice and in any case, why do they need so many?
Maybe someone around here can shed some light on this?


Really can't think of any good reasons.
This breaks down to 7,446 rounds for each and every employee of DHS. Lets be realistic. They don't all carry. And I don't know of anything outside of competition shooters that crack off that many rounds annually.
That also equates to 4.66 bullets for every man, woman and child in this country.
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.


actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though
It's nothing sinister at all. There was a similar fracas about SSA having guns and ammo. Special agents got work to do, need guns to do it.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

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Old Blue Collar Joe
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Major Lima Charlie
Homeland Security is a superagency consistent of several subagencies, each of which has several hundred special agents. Those special agents are all required to pass biannual (at least) weapons proficiency tests. Their firearms are always loaded with hollowpoints (since they are effectively police officers), and consequently, it would make sense to test their ability to fire those rounds. I suppose. Never fired HPs myself, so I dunno if they fire drastically different than solid rounds.


even if they didn't fire drastically different, it still makes more sense to practice with the weapon and ammo combination you'll actually be using than to practice with a dedicated practice weapon, or dedicated practice ammo.

still, if that 7,444/person figure is accurate . . .

well, say they use a standard-issue with a 15 round mag ( pretty standard for most police 9mms )

if they fired off a magazine a day, every day, for a year, they'd put 5475 rounds downrange.

that would leave them with 1,969 rounds for use in shooting criminals. if they discharged 5 rounds a day in the line of duty, in addition to the mag they used for training, they'd still have 144 rounds left over at the end of the year. each.
What I'm wondering is if this is an annual requisition. If they buy every five years, it wouldn't be a huge number at all.


actually, it seems a bit low for a five-year figure, truth to tell. way too much for one year, not quite enough for five . . . I'm still thinking it's probably incompetence rather than anything sinister, though


Strangely, this is a comment on the original 450 milion rounds, which was a FIVE YEAR supply. Now they suddenly need this many more?


1,300 rounds a year per person isn't a lot, but it's not a little, either. in fact, that's right about where I'd peg any figure on "necessary ammunition" for someone in such a field.

and since it's not being bought all at once, there goes my "backdoor ban on hollowpoints" idea, too

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