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Angelic Ladykiller

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WITH the success of Republicans in the midterm elections and the passage of Tennessee’s anti-abortion amendment, we can expect ongoing efforts to ban abortion and advance the “personhood” rights of fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses.

But it is not just those who support abortion rights who have reason to worry. Anti-abortion measures pose a risk to all pregnant women, including those who want to be pregnant.

Such laws are increasingly being used as the basis for arresting women who have no intention of ending a pregnancy and for preventing women from making their own decisions about how they will give birth.

How does this play out? Based on the belief that he had an obligation to give a fetus a chance for life, a judge in Washington, D.C., ordered a critically ill 27-year-old woman who was 26 weeks pregnant to undergo a cesarean section, which he understood might kill her. Neither the woman nor her baby survived.

In Iowa, a pregnant woman who fell down a flight of stairs was reported to the police after seeking help at a hospital. She was arrested for “attempted fetal homicide.”

In Utah, a woman gave birth to twins; one was stillborn. Health care providers believed that the stillbirth was the result of the woman’s decision to delay having a cesarean. She was arrested on charges of fetal homicide.

In Louisiana, a woman who went to the hospital for unexplained vaginal bleeding was locked up for over a year on charges of second-degree murder before medical records revealed she had suffered a miscarriage at 11 to 15 weeks of pregnancy.

Florida has had a number of such cases. In one, a woman was held prisoner at a hospital to prevent her from going home while she appeared to be experiencing a miscarriage. She was forced to undergo a cesarean. Neither the detention nor the surgery prevented the pregnancy loss, but they did keep this mother from caring for her two small children at home. While a state court later found the detention unlawful, the opinion suggested that if the hospital had taken her prisoner later in her pregnancy, its actions might have been permissible.

In another case, a woman who had been in labor at home was picked up by a sheriff, strapped down in the back of an ambulance, taken to a hospital, and forced to have a cesarean she did not want. When this mother later protested what had happened, a court concluded that the woman’s personal constitutional rights “clearly did not outweigh the interests of the State of Florida in preserving the life of the unborn child.”

Anti-abortion reasoning has also provided the justification for arresting pregnant women who experience depression and have attempted suicide. A 22-year-old in South Carolina who was eight months pregnant attempted suicide by jumping out a window. She survived despite suffering severe injuries. Because she lost the pregnancy, she was arrested and jailed for the crime of homicide by child abuse.

These are not isolated or rare cases. Last year, we published a peer-reviewed study documenting 413 arrests or equivalent actions depriving pregnant women of their physical liberty during the 32 years between 1973, when Roe v. Wade was decided, and 2005. In a majority of these cases, women who had no intention of ending a pregnancy went to term and gave birth to a healthy baby. This includes the many cases where the pregnant woman was alleged to have used some amount of alcohol or a criminalized drug.

Since 2005, we have identified an additional 380 cases, with more arrests occurring every week. This significant increase coincides with what the Guttmacher Institute describes as a “seismic shift” in the number of states with laws hostile to abortion rights.

The principle at the heart of contemporary efforts to end legal abortion is that fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses are persons or at least have separate rights that must be protected by the state. In each of the cases we identified, this same rationale provided the justification for the deprivation of pregnant women’s physical liberty, as well as of the right to medical decision making, medical privacy, bodily integrity and, in one case, the woman’s right to life.

Many of the pregnant women subjected to this mistreatment are themselves profoundly opposed to abortion. Yet it was precisely the legal arguments for recriminalizing abortion that were used to strip them of their rights to dignity and liberty in the context of labor and delivery. These cases, individually and collectively, highlight what is so often missed when the focus is on attacking or defending abortion, namely that all pregnant women are at risk of losing a wide range of fundamental rights that are at the core of constitutional personhood in the United States.

If we want to end these unjust and inhumane arrests and forced interventions on pregnant women, we need to stop focusing only on the abortion issue and start working to protect the personhood of pregnant women.

We should be able to work across the spectrum of opinion about abortion to unite in the defense of one basic principle: that at no point in her pregnancy should a woman lose her civil and human rights.


This terrifies me to no end, and I WISH it was a joke that in my lifetime, that women are treated like State-Owned Incubators with no rights. It should terrify every single person in this country, that a woman can have her rights so violated.

It's disturbing that we, as a nation, have those who feel all women need to be viewed as either pre-pregnant or pregnant from the time they begin menses until they reach menopause. Women are going to end up as chattel with no rights if this isn't stopped.

I for one will not submit my body as a broodmare, which these laws seem intent on forcing me to do. Instead, I simply will not be sleeping with a man again so long as these laws exist, and I urge all other women to do the same.
I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.

Tipsy Smoker

In one of the scenarios I may have been painfully close to being arrested, even living in the same state.

Angelic Ladykiller

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I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?
A Mythic Angel
Vita Divina
I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?


Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.

Angelic Ladykiller

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I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?


Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.
Emotions typically don't begin to develop until after birth, unless you're able to provide a [reputable] study that proves differently.
Also, complications due to pregnancy can materialize suddenly, and deteriorate rapidly. Such complications can arise and kill a woman within hours, even with proper medical care, and can occur with little to no warning. Thus, all pregnancies are potentially life threatening.

Alien Dog

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Interesting . . . And all this happened under the Democrat's watch, you say?

Angelic Ladykiller

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Interesting . . . And all this happened under the Democrat's watch, you say?
Right, because Democrats have the power to make state laws in Republican controlled states. I forgot, the all powerful Federal Government dictates all laws in the US, even State laws.
A Mythic Angel
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A Mythic Angel
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I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?


Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.
Emotions typically don't begin to develop until after birth, unless you're able to provide a [reputable] study that proves differently.



Also, complications due to pregnancy can materialize suddenly, and deteriorate rapidly. Such complications can arise and kill a woman within hours, even with proper medical care, and can occur with little to no warning. Thus, all pregnancies are potentially life threatening.


Emotions are only chemical reactions to events, those chemicals are already present in the brain before birth and begin forming around the 2nd month. While I may be a tad off with the time it is already a commonly known fact that the emotions (the basic ones such as happiness, fear, sadness) are already developed before they are born.

Whats the percentage chance that it will happen though? There is a chance that pretty much anything is possible but we don't go killings things for that chance unless it is probable.

Angelic Ladykiller

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I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?


Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.
Emotions typically don't begin to develop until after birth, unless you're able to provide a [reputable] study that proves differently.



Also, complications due to pregnancy can materialize suddenly, and deteriorate rapidly. Such complications can arise and kill a woman within hours, even with proper medical care, and can occur with little to no warning. Thus, all pregnancies are potentially life threatening.


Emotions are only chemical reactions to events, those chemicals are already present in the brain before birth and begin forming around the 2nd month. While I may be a tad off with the time it is already a commonly known fact that the emotions (the basic ones such as happiness, fear, sadness) are already developed before they are born.

Whats the percentage chance that it will happen though? There is a chance that pretty much anything is possible but we don't go killings things for that chance unless it is probable.
Do you have a source as to when a Fetus develops emotion, and not simply the capability to develop them?

And even if the chance is <1%, that's still too high for me.

Alien Dog

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Interesting . . . And all this happened under the Democrat's watch, you say?
Right, because Democrats have the power to make state laws in Republican controlled states. I forgot, the all powerful Federal Government dictates all laws in the US, even State laws.


Well, Roe v. Wade was a federal case, and abortion has been consistently handled from a top-down perspective . . . And, too, we ( briefly ) blamed the Republicans for failing to stop the Dems from passing the ACA when it looked like it might have been a poor financial decision ( though, that quickly resolved itself, and was right back to being the Democrat's doing . . . Except during the last election, where it became "Romney's plan" again when all the Dems wanted to distance themselves from Obama ), so why not blame the Democrats for not doing anything to stop it as it happened on their watch?

I mean, worst-case scenario, Obama had his pen and his phone ( as he reminded us ), so was this just not important enough for the Democratic party to worry about?

Angelic Ladykiller

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Interesting . . . And all this happened under the Democrat's watch, you say?
Right, because Democrats have the power to make state laws in Republican controlled states. I forgot, the all powerful Federal Government dictates all laws in the US, even State laws.


Well, Roe v. Wade was a federal case, and abortion has been consistently handled from a top-down perspective . . . And, too, we ( briefly ) blamed the Republicans for failing to stop the Dems from passing the ACA when it looked like it might have been a poor financial decision ( though, that quickly resolved itself, and was right back to being the Democrat's doing . . . Except during the last election, where it became "Romney's plan" again when all the Dems wanted to distance themselves from Obama ), so why not blame the Democrats for not doing anything to stop it as it happened on their watch?

I mean, worst-case scenario, Obama had his pen and his phone ( as he reminded us ), so was this just not important enough for the Democratic party to worry about?
Because, we have a thing called State's Rights, which Republicans constantly beat over our heads.

And, if you missed it in the article, many of these cases were pre-2005 (During the Bush administration) with the rest happening after 2005 (in which 2005-2009 were STILL during the Bush administration)

But no, keep trying to shift the blame
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I support abortion up to the 2nd month. iirc that is when the part of the brain that develops emotion begins to form. So at that point I consider it to be an actual animal and no longer just well organized cells. However I don't care if the baby is 9 months, if the mother will die or even has a high risk of dying just to make the baby survive then I believe she should have complete rights to make that decision of whether or not she sacrifices her life or her baby's.
There are many women who don't even discover they are pregnant until the 3rd month of pregnancy or later. Why should they be denied rights because their body can hide pregnancies from them longer than other women?


Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.
Emotions typically don't begin to develop until after birth, unless you're able to provide a [reputable] study that proves differently.



Also, complications due to pregnancy can materialize suddenly, and deteriorate rapidly. Such complications can arise and kill a woman within hours, even with proper medical care, and can occur with little to no warning. Thus, all pregnancies are potentially life threatening.


Emotions are only chemical reactions to events, those chemicals are already present in the brain before birth and begin forming around the 2nd month. While I may be a tad off with the time it is already a commonly known fact that the emotions (the basic ones such as happiness, fear, sadness) are already developed before they are born.

Whats the percentage chance that it will happen though? There is a chance that pretty much anything is possible but we don't go killings things for that chance unless it is probable.
Do you have a source as to when a Fetus develops emotion, and not simply the capability to develop them?

And even if the chance is <1%, that's still too high for me.


No, but the way I see it is if it has the capability to do so then it is better to treat it as though it does.

Not for me.

Alien Dog

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Interesting . . . And all this happened under the Democrat's watch, you say?
Right, because Democrats have the power to make state laws in Republican controlled states. I forgot, the all powerful Federal Government dictates all laws in the US, even State laws.


Well, Roe v. Wade was a federal case, and abortion has been consistently handled from a top-down perspective . . . And, too, we ( briefly ) blamed the Republicans for failing to stop the Dems from passing the ACA when it looked like it might have been a poor financial decision ( though, that quickly resolved itself, and was right back to being the Democrat's doing . . . Except during the last election, where it became "Romney's plan" again when all the Dems wanted to distance themselves from Obama ), so why not blame the Democrats for not doing anything to stop it as it happened on their watch?

I mean, worst-case scenario, Obama had his pen and his phone ( as he reminded us ), so was this just not important enough for the Democratic party to worry about?
Because, we have a thing called State's Rights, which Republicans constantly beat over our heads.

And, if you missed it in the article, many of these cases were pre-2005 (During the Bush administration) with the rest happening after 2005 (in which 2005-2009 were STILL during the Bush administration)

But no, keep trying to shift the blame


I'm not trying to shift the blame, I'm pointing out that it's downright dishonest to try and make the connection between a Republican Congress that was just voted in, and a long-standing pattern of abuse that both parties have had a hand in perpetuating.

Angelic Ladykiller

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Because I believe that now that that fetus is developing emotions that it is an equal, and as long as it is not threatening her life that it should be born.
Emotions typically don't begin to develop until after birth, unless you're able to provide a [reputable] study that proves differently.



Also, complications due to pregnancy can materialize suddenly, and deteriorate rapidly. Such complications can arise and kill a woman within hours, even with proper medical care, and can occur with little to no warning. Thus, all pregnancies are potentially life threatening.


Emotions are only chemical reactions to events, those chemicals are already present in the brain before birth and begin forming around the 2nd month. While I may be a tad off with the time it is already a commonly known fact that the emotions (the basic ones such as happiness, fear, sadness) are already developed before they are born.

Whats the percentage chance that it will happen though? There is a chance that pretty much anything is possible but we don't go killings things for that chance unless it is probable.
Do you have a source as to when a Fetus develops emotion, and not simply the capability to develop them?

And even if the chance is <1%, that's still too high for me.


No, but the way I see it is if it has the capability to do so then it is better to treat it as though it does.

Not for me.
Cows, Pigs, and Chicken have the capability to feel emotion, do you eat pork beef, or chicken?
And thank you, we've determined that you value an unborn mass of cells more than a living, breathing woman, who can be a productive member of society.

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