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Suicidesoldier#1
If you bring a shield to a FIGHT to you are obviously looking to defend yourself not hurt others.

But if you bring a shield to a nonviolent protest...?

Also, a shield doesn't preclude you from being there to hurt others.
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Sometimes police start violence; in hostage situations they may take the preemptive strike and take down a guy or something cause they think he's about to pull the trigger- they may come into a person's house and arrest them, etc.

Fascinating, anyway, back to talking about *not* hostage situations.
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In some cases some police do things that are bad, there is no question. Some have been paid off by the mafia, others have done all kinds of things, some turn on other police officers for revenge or whatever etc. But it doesn't mean that all of them are the same way, especially when there is internal struggle. O_o

It only takes a few higher ups to be corrupt for the effect to percolate to the rank and file.

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But, "a collective conscious"...?

Do you have any idea how people work, I mean at all?

I was about to ask you the same thing.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

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Je Nique vos Merdiers
Suicidesoldier#1
If you bring a shield to a FIGHT to you are obviously looking to defend yourself not hurt others.

But if you bring a shield to a nonviolent protest...?

Also, a shield doesn't preclude you from being there to hurt others.
Quote:

Sometimes police start violence; in hostage situations they may take the preemptive strike and take down a guy or something cause they think he's about to pull the trigger- they may come into a person's house and arrest them, etc.

Fascinating, anyway, back to talking about *not* hostage situations.
Quote:
In some cases some police do things that are bad, there is no question. Some have been paid off by the mafia, others have done all kinds of things, some turn on other police officers for revenge or whatever etc. But it doesn't mean that all of them are the same way, especially when there is internal struggle. O_o

It only takes a few higher ups to be corrupt for the effect to percolate to the rank and file.

Quote:
But, "a collective conscious"...?

Do you have any idea how people work, I mean at all?

I was about to ask you the same thing.


I don't think people are that simple. Their thoughts are their own, their actions are their own etc. they are thinking individuals.

They come up with their own ideas and act accordingly, just like everyone else.


I fail to see how being prudent is an issue though.

Not EVERYONE at that protest is going to be non-violent; some may be bad, some may get drunk and act stupid, others may break laws and need to be taken in etc. a mob can turn violent very quickly and it only takes a few individuals to cause a lot of problems or hurt a lot of people.


Again, if a person just walks around with a bullet proof vest on, say an average civilian, it's not that they are expecting violence but rather that they seek to be prepared should it come to them. It's better to have something and not need it then not have it and need it; but then again this is common sense so why I have to reiterate idk.
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I never understood how you evict non-violent protesters from public property. Is that not infringing on their right to peaceful assembly?
police brutality is okay because without it who would the police beat?
Suicidesoldier#1
I don't think people are that simple. Their thoughts are their own, their actions are their own etc. they are thinking individuals.

They come up with their own ideas and act accordingly, just like everyone else.

Except people don't come up with their own ideas. Where do you think ideas come from? They come from your existing knowledge and/or your surroundings. Why don't you have any thoughts on quantum physics? Is it because you just haven't come up with any, or is it because you haven't learned about quantum physics enough to be able to make new observations?


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I fail to see how being prudent is an issue though.

Say you hold stock at a company that has been tanking while their executives' salaries cotinue to climb higher. You go to a shareholders' meeting to express your distaste with the direction they are taking. Almost as soon as you walk into the meeting, you are greeted by security guards wielding body armor and crowd control weapons, while the executives stay locked in their towers. Does that really sound like the security guards are just taking 'intelligent precautions'?

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Not EVERYONE at that protest is going to be non-violent; some may be bad, some may get drunk and act stupid, others may break laws and need to be taken in etc.

The overwhelming majority is non-violent, though. Most of the people there actually are concerned about not getting forcibly removed. Obviously you have never seen many large protests, because when there is a violent element in the crowd, the same two things happen consistently:
1. The cops disappear right before the black bloc shows up, and leave unmanned, unattended police cars in the middle of the street.
2. Lots of protestors stop, either verbally or physically, the violent element; unless, of course, the violent element is a bunch of undercover cops, who are subsequently used to justify the arrest and confinement of hundreds of people.
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a mob can turn violent very quickly

Oh? So where's all the Occupy Riots?
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Again, if a person just walks around with a bullet proof vest on, say an average civilian, it's not that they are expecting violence but rather that they seek to be prepared should it come to them.

...So how do you prepare for something you don't expect?

Do people walk around with raincoats and wellingtons on, not because they expect rain, but because they seek to be prepared should it come to them?
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

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Suicidesoldier#1
I don't think people are that simple. Their thoughts are their own, their actions are their own etc. they are thinking individuals.

They come up with their own ideas and act accordingly, just like everyone else.

Except people don't come up with their own ideas. Where do you think ideas come from? They come from your existing knowledge and/or your surroundings. Why don't you have any thoughts on quantum physics? Is it because you just haven't come up with any, or is it because you haven't learned about quantum physics enough to be able to make new observations?


Quote:
I fail to see how being prudent is an issue though.

Say you hold stock at a company that has been tanking while their executives' salaries cotinue to climb higher. You go to a shareholders' meeting to express your distaste with the direction they are taking. Almost as soon as you walk into the meeting, you are greeted by security guards wielding body armor and crowd control weapons, while the executives stay locked in their towers. Does that really sound like the security guards are just taking 'intelligent precautions'?

Quote:
Not EVERYONE at that protest is going to be non-violent; some may be bad, some may get drunk and act stupid, others may break laws and need to be taken in etc.

The overwhelming majority is non-violent, though. Most of the people there actually are concerned about not getting forcibly removed. Obviously you have never seen many large protests, because when there is a violent element in the crowd, the same two things happen consistently:
1. The cops disappear right before the black bloc shows up, and leave unmanned, unattended police cars in the middle of the street.
2. Lots of protestors stop, either verbally or physically, the violent element; unless, of course, the violent element is a bunch of undercover cops, who are subsequently used to justify the arrest and confinement of hundreds of people.
Quote:
a mob can turn violent very quickly

Oh? So where's all the Occupy Riots?
Quote:
Again, if a person just walks around with a bullet proof vest on, say an average civilian, it's not that they are expecting violence but rather that they seek to be prepared should it come to them.

...So how do you prepare for something you don't expect?

Do people walk around with raincoats and wellingtons on, not because they expect rain, but because they seek to be prepared should it come to them?


They drive around with jackets and umbrellas in their cars. They carry their license and insurance information in their wallet, as well as usually some spare cash.

They carry a gun or wear body armor or a good pair of shoes or comfortable clothes. Woman are the epitome of this, purses with stuff in them they may never end up using, from coupons to tic tacs to all kinds of things.


People think ahead for general things.

And many people do have ideas in their head from quantum mechanics, and come up with ideas all the time; maybe they can't find out all the information about nuetrinos or whatever lacking hadron colliders and whatever equipment, but just thinking of a better way to paint their house or get to the mall around traffic, sure, all the time.


I think given the situation they can come up with all kinds of ideas, and usually do. These are human beings we are talking about, thinking animals. It's not that complex of a thing to grasp. They may not be responsible for rockets that go into space or cutting edge science information but no one person is, so it really depends on their profession or their situation. But yes, they come up with ideas all the times, from how to plan a birthday party to what to do on a Saturday afternoon.
Suicidesoldier#1
They drive around with jackets and umbrellas in their cars. They carry their license and insurance information in their wallet, as well as usually some spare cash.

So leave the body armor in your car.

Or if things turn ugly, here's an idea: LEAVE!

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And many people do have ideas in their head from quantum mechanics, and come up with ideas all the time;
You didn't answer my question, though. Why don't you have any thoughts on quantum mechanics? Where do you think ideas come from? They just pop out of nowhere, in violation of causality?


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These are human beings we are talking about, thinking animals.

Just about any animal can think. Humans only have a few major differences from other apes, but certainly not one of them is a portal to another dimension where causality doesn't exist and ideas flow from the void.
The police force faces an interesting problem. That being that can't seem to find the right spot they need between community service and paramilitary force.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

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Je Nique vos Merdiers
Suicidesoldier#1
They drive around with jackets and umbrellas in their cars. They carry their license and insurance information in their wallet, as well as usually some spare cash.

So leave the body armor in your car.

Or if things turn ugly, here's an idea: LEAVE!

Quote:
And many people do have ideas in their head from quantum mechanics, and come up with ideas all the time;
You didn't answer my question, though. Why don't you have any thoughts on quantum mechanics? Where do you think ideas come from? They just pop out of nowhere, in violation of causality?


Quote:
These are human beings we are talking about, thinking animals.

Just about any animal can think. Humans only have a few major differences from other apes, but certainly not one of them is a portal to another dimension where causality doesn't exist and ideas flow from the void.


They can be.

Insane people, random thoughts, etc.


And not all thoughts come from other people; it may come from watching nature, driving, some random things pops into view etc.

Once a brain has been exposed to something or enough things it might come up with thoughts on it's own seemingly at random based off of enough stimuli.


Dreaming is a good example of this.

Ideas come to people all the time; we may assume that there's a bunch of stuff behind it, life experiences or whatever, but in the end, it's basically random.


Anyways, you keep a spare tire in your car, a tic tac in your purse, your money in your wallet etc. and a gun and vest on your person, where it will be best used.

I mean gee, Idk, why don't I just leave everything I might need at my house and take nothing with me at all?
Suicidesoldier#1
They can be.

Insane people, random thoughts, etc.

I'm guessing you've studied precisely ******** about psychology.


You
And not all thoughts come from other people; it may come from watching nature, driving, some random things pops into view etc.

Me
They come from your existing knowledge and/or your surroundings.


wat
Once a brain has been exposed to something or enough things it might come up with thoughts on it's own seemingly at random based off of enough stimuli.

"On its own"? You think people's brains just act in the absence of any cause, in violation of one of the most basic laws of the universe? If someone has enough conditioning or knowledge on a subject, like programming computers, and we learn that they produce a new kind of program to map the frequency of twitter posts or some web 2.0 marketing bullshit like that, what do you think is more likely:
1. The dev needed or saw a need for this tool, and used his conditioning and ideas to produce it.
2. The dev simply came up with this idea, on his own, seemingly at random.

Quote:
Dreaming is a good example of this.


Quote:
Ideas come to people all the time; we may assume that there's a bunch of stuff behind it, life experiences or whatever, but in the end, it's basically random.

What are you talking about? Knowledge follows a very clear progression, and just because you don't know what the stimulus was doesn't make it random, nor does it grant it exception from causality.
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I mean gee, Idk, why don't I just leave everything I might need at my house and take nothing with me at all?

Or maybe even better, you should wear your hazmat suit every day, just in case terrorists release deadly viruses and toxins into the air. Hey, it can't hurt to be prepared, right?
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

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Je Nique vos Merdiers
Suicidesoldier#1
They can be.

Insane people, random thoughts, etc.

I'm guessing you've studied precisely ******** about psychology.


You
And not all thoughts come from other people; it may come from watching nature, driving, some random things pops into view etc.

Me
They come from your existing knowledge and/or your surroundings.


wat
Once a brain has been exposed to something or enough things it might come up with thoughts on it's own seemingly at random based off of enough stimuli.

"On its own"? You think people's brains just act in the absence of any cause, in violation of one of the most basic laws of the universe? If someone has enough conditioning or knowledge on a subject, like programming computers, and we learn that they produce a new kind of program to map the frequency of twitter posts or some web 2.0 marketing bullshit like that, what do you think is more likely:
1. The dev needed or saw a need for this tool, and used his conditioning and ideas to produce it.
2. The dev simply came up with this idea, on his own, seemingly at random.

Quote:
Dreaming is a good example of this.


Quote:
Ideas come to people all the time; we may assume that there's a bunch of stuff behind it, life experiences or whatever, but in the end, it's basically random.

What are you talking about? Knowledge follows a very clear progression, and just because you don't know what the stimulus was doesn't make it random, nor does it grant it exception from causality.
Quote:
I mean gee, Idk, why don't I just leave everything I might need at my house and take nothing with me at all?

Or maybe even better, you should wear your hazmat suit every day, just in case terrorists release deadly viruses and toxins into the air. Hey, it can't hurt to be prepared, right?


If I could I would.

My ideal thing would be a force field so it wouldn't be very invasive; hazard suits can wear out due to sweat and the sweat build up can be bad unless it's obviously life or death.


Not a good thing to carry around every day- also, it would get expensive replacing the suits so often, and I don't have that kind of money. sad

Also, the point is that it doesn't have to come from other people's ideas or specific sources; I.E. they think.


Being born is a stimulus that gets things going, so I mean, even if we assume, according to you, that we can trace everything back to the big bang or something and that there is no amount of randomness in the universe, becuase of the near infinite number of variables every person could have come up with an idea on their own for multiple reasons or for slightly different reasons etc which would produce differences that over so many years would produce changes and some would simply have massively different exposures to certain things to change things etc.; I'm not going to pretend that I know everything there is to know in life and the universe, just that it's so large it's virtually incalculable and compared to even everything that exists on earth, it'ss so huge that it might as well be random or at least that we can't trace it back to a single variable.

Pretending to have any clue about this at all is just absurd. Anyways, if you need to study psychology you're already at a loss. You should be born with the innate knowledge of how people work, it's basic instinct, smiles, frowning, etc if you lack this I feel sorry for you and you are already behind.
grinningjester's avatar

Friendly Guildsman

I apologize for the wall of text.
This thread is filled with a whole lot of people talking a whole lot of nonsense about topics they need more information on. Let's do a quick lesson on how policing works.

1. You cannot judge ALL law enforcement on those few individuals. Police are normal people put in extraordinary situations. Whenever you get a group of people together, you're bound to get bad apples. Departments try to screen these people out before they hit the streets but they sometimes make it.
2. When faced with any situation, the officer must prepare for the worst. When he pulls you over because your tail light is out he is thinking you might shoot him. He's looking for the gun. He's expecting the shot. He's planning how he's going to react. And when you don't and you're nice instead, it's a pleasant surprise. But if you do something that in any way says danger to him, he's going to take action because...
3. Policing requires action not reaction. If I wait for Jim Parolee to shoot first, I'll be dead before I can respond. You always respond to the threat with one step higher. If that means more people and/or a different tool (TASER, OC aka pepper spray, Baton, etc) then that is what is required for action.
4. Most law enforcement officers want nothing more than to go home at the end of the shift in one piece. They don't want to hurt you, they don't want to piss you off. They want to do their job.

When you have Joe Blow trying to sell a carload of weed and he comes up firing because he's not going back to jail, that was his choice. He broke the law and the law had to come get him. Knocking nicely on the door would not have made that situation better. Chances are it would have made it worse. A lot of judges will sign off on something called NO knock and notice. That's just a bust your door down and come in hot. Having served MANY warrants myself, the less prepared people were, the less of a fight.

In the case of the protests, police must be prepared. To be reactive would be to sit around and watch people do their thing and twiddle our thumbs. Active would be expecting things to get out of hand. Since police are action, not reaction, we bring the shields, large batons, helmets, and all the other fun riot gear. We call it our hats and bats. When nothing happens and the protest is a peaceful one, excellent. But when something happens, we have to keep the peace. You wouldn't be arrested or pepper sprayed or whatever if you didn't earn it.

Why oh why did you have to use pepper spray, you say? In training officers have to be exposed to pepper spray, usually a dose much higher than any civilian would be given (for me they opened the can and poured out the syrup onto my eyes), and then they have to fight through it for a certain amount of time. It was doable. To carry a TASER, most departments require you to be shot with it. A TASER hurts like hell for 5 seconds and then you're done. We know what it feels like. The reason we're using it is probably a damn good one otherwise we stay the hell away from use of force. Do you have any idea the amount of paperwork it is for use of force? How dangerous for our careers, families, lives? Why would we voluntarily use these "horrible" things on you if we didn't absolutely have to?

And for the fellow who is discussing how people act when they don't have rules vs do have rules, parolees the world over love to enlighten you on this. Just one example, when the doors are closed and the guards are gone, there's no one to police anything. Give me a few guesses on what happens. If given the chance, these people would love to mess the world up, but we have to stop them, most often forcibly. The vast majority of people are deterred just on the chance that there might be a consequence. That's why cops give out warnings for tickets sometimes.
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I've seen those "police brutality" videos and I see the police trying to maintain order during a riot.

What riots? Look at all those people sitting in a park rioting! Really? Come on now. The only time I've seen anything close to rioting(and this "rioting" amounts to things being thrown at police after they fire tear gas/bean bags at protesters and a few instances of spray-paint) was the few times the cops and protesters clashed during peaceful marches. Meaning what turned these events into "riots" was the fact that the police showed up armed to the teeth for a fight.
Yoshpet
I never understood how you evict non-violent protesters from public property. Is that not infringing on their right to peaceful assembly?
It is, though the police are claimging "illegal camping".

A crime so heinous, that it warrants a full squadron armed to the teeth with riot gear.

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