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Tadpole Jackson
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Tadpole Jackson
is a pap smear rape?

how about a pelvic exam?


If they're forced upon another unnecessarily for the purpose of being issued other medical treatments, then, yes.


It's still medical, hell, they are mandatory as part of the diagnosis process for some things.

abortions are voluntary, if that process includes an ultrasound, and you don't want that, don't have the procedure.

you think an abortion is somehow less invasive? bullshit.

don't call it rape, that's disingenuous both to the process and to victims of ACTUAL rape.


But they are also necessary. As in there is no other procedure that could perform the same function, and there is medical reason for it: to screen for diseases and the like. These scans do not screen for diseases, but intend to guilt the prospective mother into having a child, while also being invasive for no reason other than it can be, as if the patient needs to be loaded with feelings of regret. Ultrasounds do not need to be internal.

So? Receiving any form of medical treatment is voluntary, that doesn't mean they can tack on clauses to access that treatment in the hope it will stop people going for it.

I think an abortion is less invasive upon the principle of consent. Saying otherwise is like saying "rape doesn't matter because she's already had a c**k up there before".
Speaking from experience, a vaginal ultrasound, though sometimes necessary, is extremely invasive. The procedure can be humiliating beyond belief, and I'd go so far as to say for some it's downright traumatizing. I had one because of an ectopic pregnancy; it's nothing I would choose to do for any reason but an emergency situation. Forcing someone to go through the procedure is vile.

Is there a war on women? I don't know. There are definitely some politicians and people who give me that impression, but sometimes I think it's because the loudest and most rabid types are easier to remember. Terribly obnoxious people are, unfortunately, memorable.
Blind Guardian the 2nd
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.


So sorry Manc: sexual assault. Is that better?

Even sexual assault is kind of much to me. If that's sexual assault, then I guess the docs charged with doing exams on women and men who were raped are guilty of sexual assault too? Come now.

Just call it for what it is- its an unnecessarily invasive procedure whose sole function is emotional appeal.


Not at all. The difference is consent, and no future medical procedures were conditional upon receiving the first. Furthermore, this case is a sexual invasion for NO medical purpose, hence why it is more an issue of invasion than the others.

I wouldn't argue its only about emotional appeal. I'd argue it's about bodily punishment too. ("You have different relationships to reproduction so we're going to ******** you with a stick." wink

If 'consent' is the issue, then I dont even see how this issue even fits.

This law, as I understand it, attaches an unnecessary procedure to the abortion process for the state of Texas. Its no different than, say, how I was just required to give a blood sample affirming I was free of disease in order to give a marrow donation.

The whole point should be to focus on the fact that, unlike my blood draw, this is not necessary. To call it 'rape' or 'sexual assault' over-dramatizes and detracts from this point.
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Tadpole Jackson
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Tadpole Jackson
is a pap smear rape?

how about a pelvic exam?


If they're forced upon another unnecessarily for the purpose of being issued other medical treatments, then, yes.


It's still medical, hell, they are mandatory as part of the diagnosis process for some things.

abortions are voluntary, if that process includes an ultrasound, and you don't want that, don't have the procedure.

you think an abortion is somehow less invasive? bullshit.

don't call it rape, that's disingenuous both to the process and to victims of ACTUAL rape.


But they are also necessary. As in there is no other procedure that could perform the same function, and there is medical reason for it: to screen for diseases and the like. These scans do not screen for diseases, but intend to guilt the prospective mother into having a child, while also being invasive for no reason other than it can be, as if the patient needs to be loaded with feelings of regret. Ultrasounds do not need to be internal.

So? Receiving any form of medical treatment is voluntary, that doesn't mean they can tack on clauses to access that treatment in the hope it will stop people going for it.

I think an abortion is less invasive upon the principle of consent. Saying otherwise is like saying "rape doesn't matter because she's already had a c**k up there before".


it's not required to use the vaginal ultrasound because of law, it's because at that stage of pregnancy it's the only way to see the fetus.
Blind Guardian the 2nd
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The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


Oh please- so you mean when I go and get a prostate exam, (wherein the doctor puts his finger in your a**s), that is automatically sexual? Rarely have I used this, but I feel its apt; dramallama


No, we mean that this is like a doctor insisting on giving you a prostate exam before you're permitted to have a vasectomy.

If a prostate exam is relevant to a vasectomy, then I dont mind.
The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


So any medical procedure involving some sort of insertion of an object into my p***s or a**s is now considered rape?
Vizal
The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


So any medical procedure involving some sort of insertion of an object into my p***s or a**s is now considered rape?
I'm pretty much positive you didn't read the whole post.

If I say you have to have an unnecessary, invasive procedure, before the procedure you want, it would be. It's about as bad as saying I have to suck you off before you'll give me my prescription for antibiotics.
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.


So sorry Manc: sexual assault. Is that better?

Even sexual assault is kind of much to me. If that's sexual assault, then I guess the docs charged with doing exams on women and men who were raped are guilty of sexual assault too? Come now.

Just call it for what it is- its an unnecessarily invasive procedure whose sole function is emotional appeal.
You mean like when Pro-Lifers call abortion murder and refer to a fetus as a baby?

The Pro-Lifers have been using this tactic for years (to some effect), so why shouldn't we tug on those heartstrings when we get a chance?
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


Oh please- so you mean when I go and get a prostate exam, (wherein the doctor puts his finger in your a**s), that is automatically sexual? Rarely have I used this, but I feel its apt; dramallama


No, we mean that this is like a doctor insisting on giving you a prostate exam before you're permitted to have a vasectomy.

If a prostate exam is relevant to a vasectomy, then I dont mind.
It isn't. The whole purpose, obviously, is to dissuade women from getting abortions. Either you get penetrated by us, even though it's not medically necessary, or you can't have the abortion. They're banking on women not wanting to have a doctor effectively d***o ******** them for their procedure.
Steam Punk Adept
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.


So sorry Manc: sexual assault. Is that better?

Even sexual assault is kind of much to me. If that's sexual assault, then I guess the docs charged with doing exams on women and men who were raped are guilty of sexual assault too? Come now.

Just call it for what it is- its an unnecessarily invasive procedure whose sole function is emotional appeal.
You mean like when Pro-Lifers call abortion murder and refer to a fetus as a baby?

The Pro-Lifers have been using this tactic for years (to some effect), so why shouldn't we tug on those heartstrings when we get a chance?

Exactly. Murder is a legally defined crime, and the fetus, while a life, is not a baby yet.

Sorry, but I grew out of the whole 'He called me a name, so I am justified to do the same', when I was a frosh in highschool.
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Steam Punk Adept
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.


So sorry Manc: sexual assault. Is that better?

Even sexual assault is kind of much to me. If that's sexual assault, then I guess the docs charged with doing exams on women and men who were raped are guilty of sexual assault too? Come now.

Just call it for what it is- its an unnecessarily invasive procedure whose sole function is emotional appeal.
You mean like when Pro-Lifers call abortion murder and refer to a fetus as a baby?

The Pro-Lifers have been using this tactic for years (to some effect), so why shouldn't we tug on those heartstrings when we get a chance?

Exactly. Murder is a legally defined crime, and the fetus, while a life, is not a baby yet.

Sorry, but I grew out of the whole 'He called me a name, so I am justified to do the same', when I was a frosh in highschool.
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well through the written word.
The Living Force
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
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The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


Oh please- so you mean when I go and get a prostate exam, (wherein the doctor puts his finger in your a**s), that is automatically sexual? Rarely have I used this, but I feel its apt; dramallama


No, we mean that this is like a doctor insisting on giving you a prostate exam before you're permitted to have a vasectomy.

If a prostate exam is relevant to a vasectomy, then I dont mind.
It isn't. The whole purpose, obviously, is to dissuade women from getting abortions. Either you get penetrated by us, even though it's not medically necessary, or you can't have the abortion. They're banking on women not wanting to have a doctor effectively d***o ******** them for their procedure.

Of course its to dissuade people, but that hardly warrants a charge of rape.

When people expand rape to things that are just not rape, it belittles rape.
Steam Punk Adept
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Steam Punk Adept
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Blind Guardian the 2nd
Riviera de la Mancha
I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.


So sorry Manc: sexual assault. Is that better?

Even sexual assault is kind of much to me. If that's sexual assault, then I guess the docs charged with doing exams on women and men who were raped are guilty of sexual assault too? Come now.

Just call it for what it is- its an unnecessarily invasive procedure whose sole function is emotional appeal.
You mean like when Pro-Lifers call abortion murder and refer to a fetus as a baby?

The Pro-Lifers have been using this tactic for years (to some effect), so why shouldn't we tug on those heartstrings when we get a chance?

Exactly. Murder is a legally defined crime, and the fetus, while a life, is not a baby yet.

Sorry, but I grew out of the whole 'He called me a name, so I am justified to do the same', when I was a frosh in highschool.
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well through the written word.

Where was I being sarcastic? I did grow out of the whole 'he hit me so I am justified to hit him back' mentality in high school. That is essentially your argument after all- they use extremist dramatic language, so we should do the same.
The Living Force
Vizal
The Living Force
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I dont like the law, but please, stop the dramatics by calling it 'rape'.
Penetration by an object (which is sexual) is required for a service. If I tell you that you have to blow me in order to get health care, you'd call that rape, right?

Same idea.


So any medical procedure involving some sort of insertion of an object into my p***s or a**s is now considered rape?
I'm pretty much positive you didn't read the whole post.

If I say you have to have an unnecessary, invasive procedure, before the procedure you want, it would be. It's about as bad as saying I have to suck you off before you'll give me my prescription for antibiotics.


No, that is a false analogy. They aren't MacGyver'ing the thing to the end of their p***s and inserting it.

What they want is an elective procedure. They don't need it, but merely want it. It's just as necessary as cosmetic surgery. If they want it, they must to go through a process they do not want to go through, but are willing for the sake of the outcome.
It's not as if they say aloud, "I want an abortion", and suddenly some detective handcuffs them and brings them to the doctor and says, "She wants an abortion, she's having this procedure even if she doesn't want it." That's simply not how it works.

If I want my wisdom teeth taken out, they have to drug me up and insert a lot of unpleasant tools into my mouth. Do I want that? Heck no. However, I know the outcome is what I want, not the process to get me there. Am I willing to put up with it? Of course. Is it rape? Apparently, you think it is.
The Living Force
TRIGGER WARNING This thread is discussing a topic related to sexual assault and/or rape which may be triggering to survivors.

So, y'all'll probably remember the thread a while back about Virginia trying to pass a law obligating women to have an intrusive and unnecessary vaginal ultrasound. Y'all might even remember that the VA Governor shot it down as being ridiculous and intrusive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/opinion/sunday/kristof-when-states-abuse-women.html?_r=2&src=tp

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82R/billtext/pdf/HB00015F.pdf#navpanes=0

Well a similar bill passed in Texas. Not news, right? "Rick Perry's state attacks women, coulda told ya that."

Interestingly, up until 2003, the vaginal ultrasound would have violated the state's anti-sodomy laws. Of course, they had to change that law, but it seems they only wanted it in capacities where "artificial penetration" was used in consensual relationships.

So, here's what we can discuss:
Legality issues
Women's Rights in regards to not having to be effectively raped (rape with a device counts as rape, as does obligating sex or sex-like activities for something; it's rape to tell someone, "If you want antibiotics, suck my d**k," so this is likewise rape: "If you want an abortion, spread your legs so I can stick this in you a little bit." wink
Idea of war on women in general


I hate chiggers.

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