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Savethefails
Native American reservations.

Discussion.

What say you?

They should trade lands with the rest of the US. It's only fair that the white man get what he paid for.
logan the god of candy
they should all turn over to united states law and land. join the u.s. and build bad a** history museums/ libraries dedicated to local native heritage.

no, museums are for dead cultures
We Are Organisms
Sounds like a middle school project assignment this 'discussion'.

Anyways the native americans should have reservations except for the alcohol problems. But its their reservation to drink their life away I suppose, for the ones that do anyways. Howabout we actually google something and see if it needs reforming or not before giving our half-uneducated opinions?

Damn near everything needs reforming.
Okier - chan
The White people in our perspective haven't learned and felt
what it is like to lose everything.


Two questions.

1. Are you familiar with Irish History? (If not, investigate the years 1536–1691)

2. Are you familiar with Polish history? (If not, I suggest you look into the years 1772 - 1795)

That being said, naw, there is essentially just one group of people from Europe whom we can define as "White People" and they all have the same collective experience/history.

Just like everyone from every African country can be described as one big group of "Blacks" and the all have the same collective experience/history and everyone from every Asian country can be described as "Asians" and all have the same collective experience/history.
Rons Waterbeds


They didn't lose their culture or their language did they?
Gaelic and Polish language still exists whereas First nations own are dying out.

We label them "white" because that is their skin colour. If I wanted I could refer to them
as the name my people gave them, Kaam ksii waa - bleached drift wood.
We had no clue when they first came who they were, they were strangers to our land.
Therefore, when we learnt the English language we referred to them as White people.
The children during first Contact called them crows because of how they walked,
the adults called them bleached drift wood because of their boats.
Okier - chan
Rons Waterbeds


They didn't lose their culture or their language did they?
Gaelic and Polish language still exists whereas First nations own are dying out.

We label them "white" because that is their skin colour. If I wanted I could refer to them
as the name my people gave them, Kaam ksii waa - bleached drift wood.
We had no clue when they first came who they were, they were strangers to our land.
Therefore, when we learnt the English language we referred to them as White people.
The children during first Contact called them crows because of how they walked,
the adults called them bleached drift wood because of their boats.


Gaelic still exists? Barely. It is most decidedly dying. I know very few people who speak fluent Gaelic who are not very old.

As for the "We label them" element.... While I am not a Native American and cannot offer proper commentary, I am going to suggest if that is the reasoning, you are living in a bizzare state.

The first encounter between Native Americans / Europeans =/= All European people are essentially the same thing, and acting as such is immensely foolish.

That being said, I am all for the fact that we are all human and our differences aren't that grand, but I still think it is silly to assume that all of a continental group is essentially the same thing in terms of culture, historical experiences, etc.
Postscript....

I don't mean to suggest that any of this excuses what was done/is being done to the natives.

Just the opposite. My point is that when that is done to anybody, it is a horrible thing. So many systems/policies around the natives need to be fixed/reformed and a lot of abuses need to be addressed.

However, the fact that this was done to natives by Europeans does not mean that it has never happened to a European group. Albeit, there are few in recent memory (Because if we go back far enough, The Romans ******** everyone over very fiercely.) who rival the natives.
Olya's avatar

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Okier - chan
Rons Waterbeds


They didn't lose their culture or their language did they?



Your understanding of European culture and history, especially Eastern-European borders on pitiful ignorance.

GREAT efforts have been made to eradicate Polish culture and history. Had the Tsarists Russia or the Soviet Union lasted a couple of decades longer, those efforts would have been successful. Languages and cultures have been dying all over the former Soviet Union. People there, for the most part, speak Russian and watch Russian programming. They see the need to learn English and to learn Russian. There is little place for the native tongues and customs. And, unlike the Polish who managed to preserve some of their national identity, it is entirely possible that in our lifetime several languages and traditions will all but vanish from Eastern Europe.

England has no culture that is English and has no language that is English. Britain's past, mythology, folklore, and history has been systematically wiped out by the Romans (who brutally enslaved the populace), the Nords, and the French. English is comprised almost entirely of German, French, Latin, and Old Norse. If you ever bother to look into why J. R. R. Tolkien wrote his works of literature, you'll find it is to give British the past and history they should have had.

Finish culture is also dying. The language and customs were eradicated by the Swedes.

French Calvinists as well as entirely unique French Christian sects have been exterminated. The last Huguenots fled to colonies. The other denominations were not so lucky. And by not so lucky I mean murdered - men, women, and children - basically entire cities and villages.

As for Native American Culture, it is almost entirely invented. We have no idea what the Native American culture was like because it has been eradicated and very successfully. What we view today as "Native American" has been the reinvention of what people thought "Native American" ought to look like. Mid-twentieth century marks the point where historians and hippies became interested in it. By then there was painfully little to go by. Yet, when you say "lost their culture," I think it is important that you ask yourself "how" and "to whom" because just as many tribes lost their identities when the English, French, Dutch, and Spanish landed, they have been systematically warring and eradicating the history, memory, and cultures of smaller, weaker tribes for centuries before. Aztecs and Mayans were notorious for that s**t. In fact, it can be argued that had it not been for the infighting between the tribes, Europeans would have had a hell of a lot harder time colonizing the two continents.

History sucks and cultures die. Those who are not of the past shouldn't live in it. At least that's my view of things.

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Olya
Your understanding of European culture and history, especially Eastern-European borders on pitiful ignorance.

GREAT efforts have been made to eradicate Polish culture and history. Had the Tsarists Russia or the Soviet Union lasted a couple of decades longer, those efforts would have been successful. Languages and cultures have been dying all over the former Soviet Union. People there, for the most part, speak Russian and watch Russian programming. They see the need to learn English and to learn Russian. There is little place for the native tongues and customs. And, unlike the Polish who managed to preserve some of their national identity, it is entirely possible that in our lifetime several languages and traditions will all but vanish from Eastern Europe.

England has no culture that is English and has no language that is English. Britain's past, mythology, folklore, and history has been systematically wiped out by the Romans (who brutally enslaved the populace), the Nords, and the French. English is comprised almost entirely of German, French, Latin, and Old Norse. If you ever bother to look into why J. R. R. Tolkien wrote his works of literature, you'll find it is to give British the past and history they should have had.

Finish culture is also dying. The language and customs were eradicated by the Swedes.

French Calvinists as well as entirely unique French Christian sects have been exterminated. The last Huguenots fled to colonies. The other denominations were not so lucky. And by not so lucky I mean murdered - men, women, and children - basically entire cities and villages.

As for Native American Culture, it is almost entirely invented. We have no idea what the Native American culture was like because it has been eradicated and very successfully. What we view today as "Native American" has been the reinvention of what people thought "Native American" ought to look like. Mid-twentieth century marks the point where historians and hippies became interested in it. By then there was painfully little to go by. Yet, when you say "lost their culture," I think it is important that you ask yourself "how" and "to whom" because just as many tribes lost their identities when the English, French, Dutch, and Spanish landed, they have been systematically warring and eradicating the history, memory, and cultures of smaller, weaker tribes for centuries before. Aztecs and Mayans were notorious for that s**t. In fact, it can be argued that had it not been for the infighting between the tribes, Europeans would have had a hell of a lot harder time colonizing the two continents.

History sucks and cultures die. Those who are not of the past shouldn't live in it. At least that's my view of things.

gaia_angelleft gaia_star gaia_angelright


I've learnt, I was more or less forced to due to the school systems.
When I got the choice I stopped.

If you must know, I grew up listening to stories about the wars.
I'm half white myself and I don't look down on them, I enjoy history.
But, the Polish language still exists, and many areas that were under USSR reign
suffered. I've studied that subject well, not to mention I read anything I can get my hands on.
Most of this is old news to me. I have also studied the English history as well.
But they still survived correct? Have you ever heard of the Beothuk ?
The last known survivor was recorded a couple hundred years after contact.
Do you know why they died out? European contact. Plain and simple.

No, our culture hasn't been eradicated. We held on.
We know how our culture was through oral histories, that's how we survived.
Residential school cut that off and sad to say neither I nor my mother speak
our tongue. We understand it but don't speak it.
We say our culture and traditions carry on through our language,
that's why those with nearly extinct languages are fighting to try preserve it.

I resent the Canadian school system, we weren't given choices on what we wanted,
for the longest time we were forced to study about the "european explorers in Canada"
instead of later on having the chance to study about our own peoples. Forced to take
French instead of a First nations language. For the longest time I faced racism from
Europeans and Asians simply for being different.

True, the past is gone, but to simply put it we hold our traditions close to our hearts.
I was raised by these traditions and one simply can't let go so easily.
I know my place in my family, what my status is and how I would have been
treated had we still lived in the old ways. I enjoy having that knowledge.

Tell me, are you facing threats today because you are of a Minority culture?
Has is gotten worse in the PRESENT times because of a simple motion called
Idle No More where elders, children, and everyone else are being attacked in some
cases verbally and physically? I wouldn't think so.


Rons Waterbeds

Have you looked at the list of dying Aboriginal languages lately?
Compared to a few european ones, there are hundreds.
Haida for example is nearly dead, possibly a 100 or so elders left who speak it.

No, we don't have our differences, I agree with that, but tell me, do people walk around
calling you a savage because of your skin tone? I highly doubt it.


Sorry for being like this, I don't discriminate based on skin tones, or history, but
since the government once again started to treat us FN like crap it gets hard to
keep this anger out of my words. So sorry again and I hope that I haven't angered anyone.
I love hearing your different perspectives on this subject, but try understand from a
Native perspective on how it is living as one of us in this day and time.
My people have a saying, Sayt Kilim Goot, it means of One heart.
PikachuBaller's avatar

Dapper Dabbler

Wraith of Azrael
Yea we actually had a university class that actually dealt with the issues of the aboriginals and honestly, it's pretty ridiculous.

The Aboriginals don't even own their own ******** land, it's all crown land which is required to be regulated and controlled by the state.

The funds they receive are less than the average Canadian for the exact same thing, be it for healthcare, schooling, welfare, etc.
One of the things they should ATLEAST be getting is the same treatment as every day Canadians.

The reservations are falling apart and I think it's time the land was given specifically to the bands to do as they please.

They also deserve their proper treaty rights which they were guaranteed in the treaties that they signed.

Don't take my word for it, take former Prime Minister Paul Martin's instead.


My half sister is native, and I have some native friends.
They have it easy.
My sister has full insurance, everything for her is pretty well paid for.
My friend is going to school on the governments coin. She is literally being paid by the government to go to University.
I don't think we owe this generation of Native Americans anything.
I think everyone, at this point, needs to be equal.
The reservations out where I live are ******** nice, bro.
And the houses are cheap as dirt for them. It's why they can all be drunk and on welfare and live in a two story four bedroom home.
SoullessSingularity's avatar

Lunatic

PikachuBaller
Wraith of Azrael
Yea we actually had a university class that actually dealt with the issues of the aboriginals and honestly, it's pretty ridiculous.

The Aboriginals don't even own their own ******** land, it's all crown land which is required to be regulated and controlled by the state.

The funds they receive are less than the average Canadian for the exact same thing, be it for healthcare, schooling, welfare, etc.
One of the things they should ATLEAST be getting is the same treatment as every day Canadians.

The reservations are falling apart and I think it's time the land was given specifically to the bands to do as they please.

They also deserve their proper treaty rights which they were guaranteed in the treaties that they signed.

Don't take my word for it, take former Prime Minister Paul Martin's instead.


My half sister is native, and I have some native friends.
They have it easy.
My sister has full insurance, everything for her is pretty well paid for.
My friend is going to school on the governments coin. She is literally being paid by the government to go to University.
I don't think we owe this generation of Native Americans anything.
I think everyone, at this point, needs to be equal.
The reservations out where I live are ******** nice, bro.
And the houses are cheap as dirt for them. It's why they can all be drunk and on welfare and live in a two story four bedroom home.


They have it easy, except for the fact everyone considers them lazy ********, useless for everything. neutral
Admiral Dardanos's avatar

Hallowed Hunter

Rons Waterbeds
Postscript....

I don't mean to suggest that any of this excuses what was done/is being done to the natives.

Just the opposite. My point is that when that is done to anybody, it is a horrible thing. So many systems/policies around the natives need to be fixed/reformed and a lot of abuses need to be addressed.

However, the fact that this was done to natives by Europeans does not mean that it has never happened to a European group. Albeit, there are few in recent memory (Because if we go back far enough, The Romans ******** everyone over very fiercely.) who rival the natives.


Sure they conquered everywhere, but I think I read somewhere that the Romans tended to leave native cultures and religions well enough alone. I could be wrong though.
Admiral Dardanos
Rons Waterbeds
Postscript....

I don't mean to suggest that any of this excuses what was done/is being done to the natives.

Just the opposite. My point is that when that is done to anybody, it is a horrible thing. So many systems/policies around the natives need to be fixed/reformed and a lot of abuses need to be addressed.

However, the fact that this was done to natives by Europeans does not mean that it has never happened to a European group. Albeit, there are few in recent memory (Because if we go back far enough, The Romans ******** everyone over very fiercely.) who rival the natives.


Sure they conquered everywhere, but I think I read somewhere that the Romans tended to leave native cultures and religions well enough alone. I could be wrong though.


They left you alone if you submitted to Roman rule. From the first encounter.

This state of being left alone continued so long as you did whatever the Roman authorities told you to.

If you didn't do whatever they told you to, you were ********. Terribly.

If you did not immediately submit, fun times were not in your future.
Okier - chan

No, we don't have our differences, I agree with that, but tell me, do people walk around
calling you a savage because of your skin tone? I highly doubt it.


No, because these attitudes are present in Europe, not Canada. I am a Canadian, not a Irishman, not a Pole, or a German, or any of the other groups that make up my heritage (We mixed a lot in Canada)

My point is not that I personally go through these sufferings.

Your statement that I responded to was not "In my perspective, Ron's Waterbeds had not felt what it is like to lose everything." as I couldn't really argue about that because, no. I haven't.

Your statement was about how WHITE PEOPLE have never had the experience of losing everything.

The Celtic people have.

Many Slavic groups have.

Okier - chan

Have you looked at the list of dying Aboriginal languages lately?
Compared to a few european ones, there are hundreds.


I originally had a far more empassioned ramble, but I think this will make my point more concisely.

This is what that argument looks like.

Me: I have apples. Bill over there does not have apples.

Bill: Actually, I have five apples.

Me: Yeah, well, I have 25. So you don't have apples.
Olya's avatar

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Okier - chan
I've learnt, I was more or less forced to due to the school systems.
When I got the choice I stopped.

If you must know, I grew up listening to stories about the wars.
I'm half white myself and I don't look down on them, I enjoy history.
But, the Polish language still exists, and many areas that were under USSR reign
suffered. I've studied that subject well, not to mention I read anything I can get my hands on.
Most of this is old news to me. I have also studied the English history as well.
But they still survived correct? Have you ever heard of the Beothuk ?
The last known survivor was recorded a couple hundred years after contact.
Do you know why they died out? European contact. Plain and simple.

No, our culture hasn't been eradicated. We held on.
We know how our culture was through oral histories, that's how we survived.
Residential school cut that off and sad to say neither I nor my mother speak
our tongue. We understand it but don't speak it.
We say our culture and traditions carry on through our language,
that's why those with nearly extinct languages are fighting to try preserve it.

I resent the Canadian school system, we weren't given choices on what we wanted,
for the longest time we were forced to study about the "european explorers in Canada"
instead of later on having the chance to study about our own peoples. Forced to take
French instead of a First nations language. For the longest time I faced racism from
Europeans and Asians simply for being different.

True, the past is gone, but to simply put it we hold our traditions close to our hearts.
I was raised by these traditions and one simply can't let go so easily.
I know my place in my family, what my status is and how I would have been
treated had we still lived in the old ways. I enjoy having that knowledge.

Tell me, are you facing threats today because you are of a Minority culture?
Has is gotten worse in the PRESENT times because of a simple motion called
Idle No More where elders, children, and everyone else are being attacked in some
cases verbally and physically? I wouldn't think so.



You ignoring the material point here. Just because something still exists, does not change the fact that the entity itself is in the process of dying. Many Eastern-European languages are spoken only at home, in informal settings, but a vast majority of the population. There is a very big difference between casual and academic language. Schools are predominately Russian. Native tongues are taught very poorly and many students do not care to learn them at all. What good is their native language to them when their native land cannot offer them honest work for a living wage? Most students look to go to Moscow or St. Petersburg or win a scholarship to study abroad and stay in Western Europe or in North America. This makes Russian, English, Spanish, Italian, French, and German very prized languages. They see the study of their native tongue as a waste of time. Even with recent resurgence of national sentiment, the harsh economic realities are continuing the trend. And, as I said before, I fully expect a lot of these languages and cultures to vanish in my lifetime.

You can draw a similar parallel to Native American tongues. Let's face it, most Canadian students don't give a s**t about French and French offers a hell of a lot more opportunities than Native languages. Many chose to take Spanish instead, hoping to land jobs in the States. Others see English as sufficient enough - and in many instances it is. What is the net benefit of spending hours learning a Native tongue? Will it get you a job outside of social work or upper echelons of academia? Reservations lack the economic incentives to get the vast majority of the populace to consider learning their languages. That is the bottom line. You can certainly open a school that teaches most subjects in a Native American tongue and so long as you provide sufficient amount of English and French, Canadian government will give you their blessings. You can even force the study of a Native Language in public school, but you will encounter even more resentment (exponentially more) than French classes do in English-speaking Canada. On the other hand, if you were to offer 100k/year +dental benefits jobs on the reservations, you'd probably get a lot more parents pushing their kids to learn a Native tongue or two. Until then, sorry, it won't happen.

And you have to be honest about the state of Native American culture. Has some of it survived? Sure! Had the lion share been lost? Absolutely. Art and written language have been materially and irretrievably damaged and although a portion of the oral tradition and folklore has remained, that is a very fragile and unreliable way of record-keeping. And this brings me to the point that you may or may not like to hear.

We study the history of First Nations through the eyes of the European settlers because outside of small pockets where advance civilizations have emerged, there is no Pre-Colombian Native American History. Because so may Native American tribes were hunter-gatherers, the study of their lives falls under paleontology, not history, and paleontology, although a large and interesting field, is not studied in high school beyond a slight mention mainly because it has very little impact on today's society, government structure, laws, morals, rights, or geographical boarders. Let's be honest here, we teach our students the bare minimum required for them to give off the impression that they weren't raised in a barn and, perhaps, to think a little before they cast a ballot (and, sadly, many still cannot claim to even those basic abilities).

Where Canadian educational system fails is in the way it teaches history. And it does that in two ways.

1. It fails to teach history in chronological order.
2. It fails to teach the history of Asia and the Orient.

It is not stellar when it comes to foreign literature or to folklore, the later is where a lot of what we know of Native American culture can fall.

But where it really fails is in teaching math and sciences in ways that make our students competitive with their Asian and European counterparts and I'll be damned if even a penny more goes to teaching anyone's history - be it history, anthropology, or paleontology - before the issue with math and sciences is fixed. Perhaps, this view of things robs us of an incredible world which many will fail to pursue on their own self-interest but that is the only way to ensure that our students are successful and competitive in increasingly-global labor market.

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