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Okay, so you believe that men are oppressed, devalued, and have less access to equal rights in our society. It's likely that you also believe in financial abortion, greater access to childcare rights, more mens programs/resource centers, more rights in divorce cases, etc. In a nutshell, right?

So here's my question: Besides addressing these specific issues, what does your ideal version of society look like?

I mean, how do you envision the relationship between women and men, the workforce, the family, courtship, etc?

What do you want your relationship with women to be like? What's your version of an "ideal" woman, if any? What kind of women are you most drawn to (assuming you're attracted to them)?

Do you envision an "ideal" man? What does this look like?

How do you feel about gender fluidity? Does your envisionment of an ideal society include a society that can be accepting of men partaking in "feminine" behaviors, and women partaking in "masculine" ones (I'm mostly interested in the former, but should include both).

How do you feel when you see a woman being dominant with a man? Does it make you uncomfortable, or do you not care? Do you believe that a man can choose to be submissive, or that men are simply bullied into it/duped/taught by society because men are "undervalued"?

How do you feel about manhood? Do you believe men should "preserve" manhood and not be sissies, or do you genuinely believe a man's choice is equally valid either way? Same thing goes for women and being feminine. And honestly, how do you feel about lesbians? What's your gut reaction?

What kind of world do you envision for men? What kind of world do you envision for women?
I'll get right to it.

Give me a few minutes.
Yoshpet's avatar

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I'm not an MRA and I don't have any demands on behalf of "all men". I do think that Feminism (or at least certain proponents) needs to check itself and re-evaluate its goal of "gender equality", hopefully reducing the over-compensation that runs rampant through its rhetoric and proposed solutions.
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

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Yoshpet
I'm not an MRA and I don't have any demands on behalf of "all men". I do think that Feminism (or at least certain proponents) needs to check itself and re-evaluate its goal of "gender equality", hopefully reducing the over-compensation that runs rampant through its rhetoric and proposed solutions.
Overcompensation, he says.

Ever occur to you that being the overprivileged party means that you will have to lose some perks for privilege to balance out? You can't stay on top if you want to stand side by side.
Jacque De Martyr
I'll get right to it.

Give me a few minutes.


What happened to your long post? It disappeared.
sephia rainbow
Jacque De Martyr
I'll get right to it.

Give me a few minutes.


What happened to your long post? It disappeared.


I've become a Feminist after realizing....


How fantastic women are.
The New Wineskin's avatar

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I am a humanitarian, so I suppose you can call me a MRA.

sephia rainbow
Okay, so you believe that men are oppressed, devalued, and have less access to equal rights in our society.

Not entirely. For instance, there are places in society where men are better off than women; likewise, however, there are places in society where the opposite is true. For instance, the court system.

Quote:
It's likely that you also believe in financial abortion, greater access to childcare rights, more mens programs/resource centers, more rights in divorce cases, etc. In a nutshell, right?

Not necessarily "more" as it is "equal amounts compared to women."

Quote:
So here's my question: Besides addressing these specific issues, what does your ideal version of society look like?

All people regard one another as equal.

Quote:
I mean, how do you envision the relationship between women and men, the workforce, the family, courtship, etc?

An unbiased culture.

Quote:
What do you want your relationship with women to be like? What's your version of an "ideal" woman, if any? What kind of women are you most drawn to (assuming you're attracted to them)?

An "ideal" woman? That would be rather selfish of me. I suppose someone who best fits my personality. Looks don't particularly matter (although, like any normal person, I have a limit with this) to me.

Quote:
Do you envision an "ideal" man? What does this look like?

See above. However, I do believe that "perfection" on a moral level is possible. This applies to women as well.

Quote:
How do you feel about gender fluidity? Does your envisionment of an ideal society include a society that can be accepting of men partaking in "feminine" behaviors, and women partaking in "masculine" ones (I'm mostly interested in the former, but should include both).

What are masculine or feminine behaviors? That seems like calling a sound "black;" How do you sound a color? How do you do a gender?

Quote:
How do you feel when you see a woman being dominant with a man?

That would depend: is this consentual? Is this sexual in nature, or is this how the woman is being treated in the relationship, despite consent?

Quote:
Does it make you uncomfortable, or do you not care?

Provided the conditions above are satisfied (that is to say, it is consentual and is done for fetish purposes), then I do not really care.

Quote:
Do you believe that a man can choose to be submissive, or that men are simply bullied into it/duped/taught by society because men are "undervalued"?

Why couldn't he choose this? He is a person with free will (this is a rather large assumption, I know, but just go with it . . .). You cannot be "bullied into it," because the choice is still theirs. The only time I would disagree with this sentence is in cases where their life was in danger.

Quote:
How do you feel about manhood? Do you believe men should "preserve" manhood and not be sissies, or do you genuinely believe a man's choice is equally valid either way? Same thing goes for women and being feminine.

People will choose despite what I believe. However, I believe that any man or woman's choice are equally valid, provided it is not morally repugnant (for instance, choosing to commit murder is not among the things I view as equally valid, and is more likely to be done by men, making it a "masculine choice" ).

Quote:
And honestly, how do you feel about lesbians? What's your gut reaction?

Why should I care what they do in the privacy of their own homes? And why should I care if they express their love (in moderation - as in, they're not ******** in the streets or anything of the sort) in public?

Quote:
What kind of world do you envision for men? What kind of world do you envision for women?

The same for both.
The New Wineskin
I am a humanitarian, so I suppose you can call me a MRA.

sephia rainbow
Okay, so you believe that men are oppressed, devalued, and have less access to equal rights in our society.

Not entirely. For instance, there are places in society where men are better off than women; likewise, however, there are places in society where the opposite is true. For instance, the court system.

Quote:
It's likely that you also believe in financial abortion, greater access to childcare rights, more mens programs/resource centers, more rights in divorce cases, etc. In a nutshell, right?

Not necessarily "more" as it is "equal amounts compared to women."

Quote:
So here's my question: Besides addressing these specific issues, what does your ideal version of society look like?

All people regard one another as equal.

Quote:
I mean, how do you envision the relationship between women and men, the workforce, the family, courtship, etc?

An unbiased culture.

Quote:
What do you want your relationship with women to be like? What's your version of an "ideal" woman, if any? What kind of women are you most drawn to (assuming you're attracted to them)?

An "ideal" woman? That would be rather selfish of me. I suppose someone who best fits my personality. Looks don't particularly matter (although, like any normal person, I have a limit with this) to me.

Quote:
Do you envision an "ideal" man? What does this look like?

See above. However, I do believe that "perfection" on a moral level is possible. This applies to women as well.

Quote:
How do you feel about gender fluidity? Does your envisionment of an ideal society include a society that can be accepting of men partaking in "feminine" behaviors, and women partaking in "masculine" ones (I'm mostly interested in the former, but should include both).

What are masculine or feminine behaviors? That seems like calling a sound "black;" How do you sound a color? How do you do a gender?

Quote:
How do you feel when you see a woman being dominant with a man?

That would depend: is this consentual? Is this sexual in nature, or is this how the woman is being treated in the relationship, despite consent?

Quote:
Does it make you uncomfortable, or do you not care?

Provided the conditions above are satisfied (that is to say, it is consentual and is done for fetish purposes), then I do not really care.

Quote:
Do you believe that a man can choose to be submissive, or that men are simply bullied into it/duped/taught by society because men are "undervalued"?

Why couldn't he choose this? He is a person with free will (this is a rather large assumption, I know, but just go with it . . .). You cannot be "bullied into it," because the choice is still theirs. The only time I would disagree with this sentence is in cases where their life was in danger.

Quote:
How do you feel about manhood? Do you believe men should "preserve" manhood and not be sissies, or do you genuinely believe a man's choice is equally valid either way? Same thing goes for women and being feminine.

People will choose despite what I believe. However, I believe that any man or woman's choice are equally valid, provided it is not morally repugnant (for instance, choosing to commit murder is not among the things I view as equally valid, and is more likely to be done by men, making it a "masculine choice" ).

Quote:
And honestly, how do you feel about lesbians? What's your gut reaction?

Why should I care what they do in the privacy of their own homes? And why should I care if they express their love (in moderation - as in, they're not ******** in the streets or anything of the sort) in public?

Quote:
What kind of world do you envision for men? What kind of world do you envision for women?

The same for both.


Excellent post.
Yoshpet's avatar

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Major Lima Charlie
Yoshpet
I'm not an MRA and I don't have any demands on behalf of "all men". I do think that Feminism (or at least certain proponents) needs to check itself and re-evaluate its goal of "gender equality", hopefully reducing the over-compensation that runs rampant through its rhetoric and proposed solutions.
Overcompensation, he says.

Ever occur to you that being the overprivileged party means that you will have to lose some perks for privilege to balance out? You can't stay on top if you want to stand side by side.


You assume a great deal. Granting privileges to females is little more than benevolent sexism mandated by government. You don't fight fire with fire. I imagine Feminists will wake up to that fact eventually.
Besides addressing these specific issues, what does your ideal version of society look like?

An ideal version of society to me would involve a form of gender and race equality where less emphasis is placed upon competition and discrimination in regards to gender, race, and nationality.

What kind of world do you envision for men? What kind of world do you envision for women?

Space travel. Let's say women get to populate Venus and men get to populate Mars.
Major Lima Charlie's avatar

Devoted Explorer

Yoshpet
Major Lima Charlie
Yoshpet
I'm not an MRA and I don't have any demands on behalf of "all men". I do think that Feminism (or at least certain proponents) needs to check itself and re-evaluate its goal of "gender equality", hopefully reducing the over-compensation that runs rampant through its rhetoric and proposed solutions.
Overcompensation, he says.

Ever occur to you that being the overprivileged party means that you will have to lose some perks for privilege to balance out? You can't stay on top if you want to stand side by side.


You assume a great deal. Granting privileges to females is little more than benevolent sexism mandated by government. You don't fight fire with fire. I imagine Feminists will wake up to that fact eventually.
So, when dealing with women's suffrage, granting women the right to vote whilst taking away men's right to a men's only vote was... wrong? Allowing women to serve in the Armed Services was taking away men's right to men's only military was likewise wrong?

I hope you don't think that such logic is an awakening.
Major Lima Charlie
So, when dealing with women's suffrage, granting women the right to vote whilst taking away men's right to a men's only vote was... wrong? Allowing women to serve in the Armed Services was taking away men's right to men's only military was likewise wrong?


Yeah, but we take advantage of those rights, so they don't count.
Yoshpet's avatar

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Major Lima Charlie
So, when dealing with women's suffrage, granting women the right to vote whilst taking away men's right to a men's only vote was... wrong? Allowing women to serve in the Armed Services was taking away men's right to men's only military was likewise wrong?

I hope you don't think that such logic is an awakening.


You know very well I don't think any of that stuff. None of it follows from what I said either. Ending discrimination, protecting civil rights, none of that is over-compensation. It's bullshit like homeless shelters that turn away only men, espousing the idea that one cannot be "sexist" against men because they have "power" as a group, etc. which is clearly damaging to gender equality and holds Feminism back from being what it claims to be.

There's a female = victim, man = monster mentality carried by almost every vocal Feminist I've interacted with and that sort of extremism is just as good at holding back progress as insisting on traditional sexism.
MRA and Feminist ideology are both invalid. Both claim to be for equality, yet they each only focus on one half of the population.

Go for egalitarianism.

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