Men and Women. no they're not equal

[Dr_Congressman]

ratrapid

Seraphor

Equal =/= Same

Men and Women are not the same, but they are Equal.
To say they are not equal is to say that one is better than the other.

Look at the word equality. Am I talking bout equality or equal rights/treatment? I'm talking about equality, does pebble=rock? No. Is either better? Not really.

Not all rocks are pebbles, but all pebbles are rocks. No no one is completely equal. We all have varying strengths and weaknesses, but saying you have to have a certain one because of sex is stupid at best.

[le fromage terrible]

ratrapid

le fromage terrible

SparklyDoughnut

I agree. We aren't equal, because we are different.
Economically, I think a genderless society would pretty much ruin us. Shopping, for example. The majority of people who shop are female. Most shops have pretty glitsy things that women like. If we were personality-wise genderless, we wouldn't be able to sell things.
Most of what is sold in shops is tailored to gender, because without gender, it would be difficult to design a product that would attract half of the population.

I feel deeply insulted by your claim that women like pretty glitsy things. The rest of your post just didn't make any sense.

The rest of the post made fantastic sense. Why would you be deeply insulted? In general women do tend to llike "pretty glitsy things". Hense the glitter make up they wear to parties etc. Stop acting as though the characteristics of generations of men and women do not exist. Bloody righteous teens. I'm 14 and I can tell that.

IF (and that's a pretty big if) we go ahead and assume that women like "pretty glitsy things", how could you possibly explain this scientifically? Is there a "pretty glitsy thing"-gene in all women? Or could the female habits of putting glitter in their faces possibly come from the way girls are brought up?
EDIT: Oh, and I'm old enough to be your mother. Nearly.
From early childhood girls are brainwashed by parents, tv and the rest of the world in general. Girls wear pink, boys wear blue, girls play with dolls, boys play with toy guns. Girls are taught from the beginning that they have to please men.

[Projectoutlet]

ratrapid

Dr_Congressman

ratrapid

IS all of the culture induced gender differences a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that I happen to enjoy football (soccer to americans) and that my friends who are girls enjoy shopping? If we enjoy these things is that a problem? A girl is socially accepted if she wants to watch football. However, it isnt so when a boy enjoys shopping so much. Is this a bad thing? Testosterone is the hormone that men have a lot more of than women. This hormone is needed for growth and actually it has been proven by brainiac science abuse (not a great source but this experiment was logical) that by doing things percieved as being manly will increase the levels of testosterone produced while doing things that arent so physical reduce it. So really it could even stunt growth if we become genderless.

People used to think that lifting weights stunted your growth, when that is the exact opposite. I would like for you to show me a source that says that men don't or won't grow as well if they were to take on female gender roles.

I said it could. Not that it would. It's all educated speculation. I noticed your thread which was real ranting. Are you seriously trying to tell me that men and women (IN GENERAL) display the same personality traits? I'm not against equal rights, but I do not believe men and women are equal. Not saying one is beter than the other. I personally do not hold you in the greatest esteem Dr Congressman. This is not meant just to throw insults at you but shouting at women to take up arms will just create a huge rift between the genders and alienate each other. I'm up for accepting the differences and learning about them, which I have proven by posting this topic.

Ratrapid, I'm having a hard time following you. You keep saying you are for equal rights but you do not believe men and women are equal. Your definitions don't really make sense. You continue to talk about physical and emotional differences between people who have a lot of testosterone and people who have a lot of estrogen, but you are not talking about equality between people in general. If you have to continue to push against the idea the men and women are equal in any way, then how are you going to accept the differences and move forward?

BTW, I agree and know that gender is a cultural construct. Sex is the biological differences in humans. Check out the World Health Organizations definitions here. http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html

[Noodle Hierarchy]

Men and Women are not alike. They are not alike physically, mentally, socially. They are alike for the most part in the rights they have, however.

[Dr_Congressman]

Projectoutlet

ratrapid

Dr_Congressman

ratrapid

IS all of the culture induced gender differences a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that I happen to enjoy football (soccer to americans) and that my friends who are girls enjoy shopping? If we enjoy these things is that a problem? A girl is socially accepted if she wants to watch football. However, it isnt so when a boy enjoys shopping so much. Is this a bad thing? Testosterone is the hormone that men have a lot more of than women. This hormone is needed for growth and actually it has been proven by brainiac science abuse (not a great source but this experiment was logical) that by doing things percieved as being manly will increase the levels of testosterone produced while doing things that arent so physical reduce it. So really it could even stunt growth if we become genderless.

People used to think that lifting weights stunted your growth, when that is the exact opposite. I would like for you to show me a source that says that men don't or won't grow as well if they were to take on female gender roles.

I said it could. Not that it would. It's all educated speculation. I noticed your thread which was real ranting. Are you seriously trying to tell me that men and women (IN GENERAL) display the same personality traits? I'm not against equal rights, but I do not believe men and women are equal. Not saying one is beter than the other. I personally do not hold you in the greatest esteem Dr Congressman. This is not meant just to throw insults at you but shouting at women to take up arms will just create a huge rift between the genders and alienate each other. I'm up for accepting the differences and learning about them, which I have proven by posting this topic.

Ratrapid, I'm having a hard time following you. You keep saying you are for equal rights but you do not believe men and women are equal. Your definitions don't really make sense. You continue to talk about physical and emotional differences between people who have a lot of testosterone and people who have a lot of estrogen, but you are not talking about equality between people in general. If you have to continue to push against the idea the men and women are equal in any way, then how are you going to accept the differences and move forward?

BTW, I agree and know that gender is a cultural construct. Sex is the biological differences in humans. Check out the World Health Organizations definitions here. http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html

What this man said.

[ratrapid]

Oh for crying out loud! How many times have I said "in general". Your thousands and hundreds (although they should be recognised) are just that. A fraction of the 6 billion people living today. The line of best fit shows how in general, women are happy with the interests that their culture expects them to have. The same with men. AND STOP ACTING AS THOUGH WOMEN ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM SEXISM, SUCH A THOUGHT IS MORONIC.

[le fromage terrible]

Spatterdash

Equal, in an ethical context, doesn't mean 'exactly the same'. It means 'of the same worth'. Nobody can deny that men and women are physically different; that's blatant and obvious fact that stares us in the face. The issue is over the idea that men and women have different personalities, and that having different personalities justifies treating one sex with less respect than the other.
I'm of the opinion that there are definite male and female tendencies caused by hormones and brain structure, but that these tendencies aren't hard and fast rules. An aggressive woman may be rarer than an aggressive man, but that doesn't mean no women can be aggressive - or that aggression in a man is normal and admirable but unnatural and unpleasant in women.
I'm also of the opinion that a lot of differences between the sexes are entirely cultural. And heck, even if every man and every woman naturally choose different things, it's unfair that the female things are seen as inferior. A man can be obsessed with sports and he's normal. A woman can be obsessed with fashion and she's seen as silly and shallow. Not to mention that it also hurts all the millions of women who love sports and men who love fashion - though you'll notice the latter would be much more reluctant to admit it, because being a man who likes 'feminine' things is more stigmatised than being a woman who likes 'masculine' things.
Oh, and don't forget that not everybody, either physically or mentally (or both) actually fits neatly into a category of male or female. Thousands of people are born intersexed every year. Hundreds more are transgendered.

I don't think the categories of male or female will ever be removed. But I think it would be more pleasant for all of us if we stop assuming so much nonsensical crap about each other based on what sex we are, because it does over half the population no favours at all.

Thank you. Exept for the bit about brain structure. Men and women have different brain structures?

[simlanna]

le fromage terrible

ratrapid

le fromage terrible

SparklyDoughnut

I agree. We aren't equal, because we are different.
Economically, I think a genderless society would pretty much ruin us. Shopping, for example. The majority of people who shop are female. Most shops have pretty glitsy things that women like. If we were personality-wise genderless, we wouldn't be able to sell things.
Most of what is sold in shops is tailored to gender, because without gender, it would be difficult to design a product that would attract half of the population.

I feel deeply insulted by your claim that women like pretty glitsy things. The rest of your post just didn't make any sense.

The rest of the post made fantastic sense. Why would you be deeply insulted? In general women do tend to llike "pretty glitsy things". Hense the glitter make up they wear to parties etc. Stop acting as though the characteristics of generations of men and women do not exist. Bloody righteous teens. I'm 14 and I can tell that.

IF (and that's a pretty big if) we go ahead and assume that women like "pretty glitsy things", how could you possibly explain this scientifically? Is there a "pretty glitsy thing"-gene in all women? Or could the female habits of putting glitter in their faces possibly come from the way girls are brought up?
EDIT: Oh, and I'm old enough to be your mother. Nearly.
From early childhood girls are brainwashed by parents, tv and the rest of the world in general. Girls wear pink, boys wear blue, girls play with dolls, boys play with toy guns. Girls are taught from the beginning that they have to please men.

I akways assumed that female humans who are interested in mating were attracted to pretty glitzy things because that was how they sent the "I want your baby" message to the boys. So, really, its the males humans who like the pretty glitzy things, isn't it?

Look at all the guys with their trophy wives.

[Spatterdash]

le fromage terrible

Thank you. Exept for the bit about brain structure. Men and women have different brain structures?

I had meant to say brain chemistry, since it's mainly about the chemical balance, but there may be small differences in internal structure.
There's some evidence, though admittedly not much, that there's at least some part of the brain that's a different size in men and women which may affect gender identity. Of the few transsexuals whose brains have been studied, that part's size corresponded to their identity, not their birth sex. There's also been some stuff done on altering the behaviour of rats by modifying that region. More work needs to be done before it's proved entirely, but it's a possibility.

[le fromage terrible]

ratrapid

Oh for crying out loud! How many times have I said "in general". Your thousands and hundreds (although they should be recognised) are just that. A fraction of the 6 billion people living today. The line of best fit shows how in general, women are happy with the interests that their culture expects them to have. The same with men. AND STOP ACTING AS THOUGH WOMEN ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM SEXISM, SUCH A THOUGHT IS MORONIC.

Women are happy with the interests that their culture expects them to have?!
This topic wouldn't exist if that statement was true.

[Dr_Congressman]

le fromage terrible

ratrapid

Oh for crying out loud! How many times have I said "in general". Your thousands and hundreds (although they should be recognised) are just that. A fraction of the 6 billion people living today. The line of best fit shows how in general, women are happy with the interests that their culture expects them to have. The same with men. AND STOP ACTING AS THOUGH WOMEN ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM SEXISM, SUCH A THOUGHT IS MORONIC.

Women are happy with the interests that their culture expects them to have?!
This topic wouldn't exist if that statement was true.

again what he said. Glad to see someone else with some sense. Also of course both sexes deal with some form of sexism at some point or another that doesn't mean we can ignore the fact that women aren't treated as an equal in several ways.

[SparklyDoughnut]

Feyre

SparklyDoughnut

I agree. We aren't equal, because we are different.
Economically, I think a genderless society would pretty much ruin us. Shopping, for example. The majority of people who shop are female. Most shops have pretty glitsy things that women like. If we were personality-wise genderless, we wouldn't be able to sell things.
Most of what is sold in shops is tailored to gender, because without gender, it would be difficult to design a product that would attract half of the population.

Uh dude, most people who shop are female because historically women were assigned to household tasks, it's a cultural, not a genetic thing.

I'm talking more about the things they buy when they're shopping recreationally, not like food shopping, or shopping for clothes for their families. I'm talking bracelets, scarves, shoes...made for (generally speaking) women.

[The_Muffin_Puppy]

What is with this genders don't exist crap? Men produce sperm and women produce eggs. Men tend to be more physically fit due to evolution, women have broader hips. (Not really a good comparrison but hey.)) Also what was that with men having breasts? No they don't they can't lactat (SP?) so they are not breasts they are rolls of flab.
Anyway genderless society=bad. Very bad, Men and women different but should be equal, they aren't though. Men are treated worse in some aspects and women in other.

[ratrapid]

Okay here is my view explained in depth, it could seem very complex to understand but then it's a complex idea.
I believe men and women are inequal. That means that they arent good at the same things, so their values differ in different fields. Therefore there worth is different. Mostly(NOTICE THE "MOSTLY" DO NOT GIVE ME INDIVIDUAL CASES) men are better athletes as mostly they are physically stronger. To be honest, is there anything wrong with a woman doing the food shopping instead of a man when a woman is better at doing that? Is there anything wrong with a woman being a secretary if she is more organised? Wake up and realise that they are not equal. Men tend to feel they need to be important, while women are happy if they dont get all the credit. The difference in the hormones is shown there. However I like knowing these differences, expanding upon these ideas and accepting them. I know of the socially inforced gender roles and I know of people who do not fit these roles. le fromage terrible, you yourself are treating the traditional roles of women badly and though I dont agree with them that makes you a hypocrite.

[Hashire-Greywolf]

I agree completely.

Men and Women are not equal due to differences, tht will never change.

In society, however, they arent equal aswell but they CAN be, so long as both genders show equal respect for one another.