Masculinity and how it's decided...

[Distorted_Rage]

Nitroglycerific Rainbow

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Nitroglycerific Rainbow

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Nitroglycerific Rainbow

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My dear, do you even understand what gender means? Gender has literally nothing to do with what's between one's legs. It is entirely cultural. That's why gender roles vary from culture to culture.

You clearly have no idea what gender is or how trans people feel/transition/do anything. I'm happy to explain things to you, but I'm not going to shout at some punk-a** kid who thinks he's got it all figured out, like the weight of evidence collected by psychologists and sociologists means nothing.

Their "evidence" does mean next to nothing to me. Now a for differing roles in different cultures I think that might be ok as long as they are still doing what they should and not prancing around like little girls........looking and being built a little different is ok but there are some limits and things a have no business doing.

Well if you want to cite some "evidence" then go ahead. I might read it. Doesn't mean I'm going to change what I think but go ahead

Yeah, I certainly feel encouraged to share my bountiful-a** wisdom with your smart-a** attitude. I recognize these will not be scholarly sources, but considering the level of our debate, and the level of your knowledge on the subject, they'll be a good start.

Well, for starters, let's introduce you to dysphoria, the magical little monster that lives in every trans person. People don't just wake up one day and decide, "Well, I guess I wanna be a woman" or "Y'know, I think women suck. Imma go be a man." It is a creeping, pervasive, insidious feeling that makes you disgusted with the flesh you inhabit. I'm not talking about "ooh, I feel kinda gross and out of shape" kind of disgust. I'm talking about wanting-to-burn-your-flesh-off-rather-than-go-another-day-with-it-the-way-it-is kind of disgust. Fortunately, modern medicine has found a really simple solution to gender-based dysphoria: just ******** let them transition.

Ultimately, we transition to negate dysphoria more than anything else, and it ******** works. Suddenly we have a population of suicidally depressed people able to get their life back on track, better than they ever could have hoped to do with repressive therapy, which is what you are advocating no matter how you sugar it up.

Hey look! It's a bunch of REAL LIVE TRANS PEOPLE explaining dysphoria to the masses.

I'm not being a smart a** but to be honest my stance on this isn't likely to change a lot and I could care less what you say but I'd like to have a discussion about this anyway.

From what you brought me I don't think they should be barred from changing themselves now. I do still disagree with altering yourself because that to me is defiance of who you are and who you're born to be. I can't tell you how I'd feel if I was in this situation because I'm not that kind of person...

The best way i've been able to describe it is my mind expexting some things to be true about my body and my place in society, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, it can't quite grasp it. For example, my mind expects my voice to be deep, but when I speak and it hears how high it is, there's distress because of the disconnect.


...and maybe that's why I can't see why denying who you are biologically, physically, or mentally is okay. In this case we're speaking of biologically but to act different than what you are isn't okay but that doesn't mean you've got to be altered to feel good. There might be other solutions than just ignoring your assigned gender.

You have a very heavy "your birth dictates your destiny" attitude. It's romantic, and cute I guess. But for people who were born with dysphoria, we don't have the luxury of coming to terms with being dysphoric. To quote one of the people on reddit,

"[Dysphoria is like] my mind expexting some things to be true about my body and my place in society, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, it can't quite grasp it. For example, my mind expects my voice to be deep, but when I speak and it hears how high it is, there's distress because of the disconnect.
It's kind of like phantom limb syndrome. Your mind believes your limb exists, and it tries to make it move or feel, but the signals it gets back don't make any sense. So you feel disoriented, pain, panic, anxiety, a deep semse of wrongness or something missing."

That feeling never goes away, no matter how much you try. You always feel like something's missing, be it weight on your chest or a gentle flip-flopping between your legs.

It's fine to have some purist notion of what people do to their bodies, though I fail to see how these chemicals we take to transition are any different than any of the other chemicals that change our bodies, from medicine to hormones to pretty much any chemical in our bodies.

Your insistence that we mustn't embrace gendered dress/actions that are divorced from the gender attributed to our birth sex also has me puzzled. You seem convinced that what we do socially, such as wearing certain types of clothes or doing things a certain way, is somehow programmed into our biology. Or at the very least, you think acting outside our assigned gender violates some innate truth of our being. In that case, let me phrase this in a way you can relate to: As a transwoman, you inhabit a male body, everyone treats you and raises you as male, and you're expected to act male. There's just one problem: your soul is female, and it just can't come to terms with the socialization trying to be imprinted onto you. Your mind and body scuffle constantly, trying to make sense out of what you're supposed to be. And considering that the body is so much more malleable than the soul, the answer should be clear.

It's always been my understanding that your brain chemistry and thoughts should match up with your biology. It might sound bad but I think that having this gender dysphoria, while not the persons fault, means there is something wrong with you. The reason you'd be treated and raised as a male is because you are one. If you don't feel like one than something is off. Doesn't mean you're a horrible person. You just shouldn't be changing yourself in my opinion.

[Nitroglycerific Rainbow]

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Nitroglycerific Rainbow

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Nitroglycerific Rainbow

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Their "evidence" does mean next to nothing to me. Now a for differing roles in different cultures I think that might be ok as long as they are still doing what they should and not prancing around like little girls........looking and being built a little different is ok but there are some limits and things a have no business doing.

Well if you want to cite some "evidence" then go ahead. I might read it. Doesn't mean I'm going to change what I think but go ahead

Yeah, I certainly feel encouraged to share my bountiful-a** wisdom with your smart-a** attitude. I recognize these will not be scholarly sources, but considering the level of our debate, and the level of your knowledge on the subject, they'll be a good start.

Well, for starters, let's introduce you to dysphoria, the magical little monster that lives in every trans person. People don't just wake up one day and decide, "Well, I guess I wanna be a woman" or "Y'know, I think women suck. Imma go be a man." It is a creeping, pervasive, insidious feeling that makes you disgusted with the flesh you inhabit. I'm not talking about "ooh, I feel kinda gross and out of shape" kind of disgust. I'm talking about wanting-to-burn-your-flesh-off-rather-than-go-another-day-with-it-the-way-it-is kind of disgust. Fortunately, modern medicine has found a really simple solution to gender-based dysphoria: just ******** let them transition.

Ultimately, we transition to negate dysphoria more than anything else, and it ******** works. Suddenly we have a population of suicidally depressed people able to get their life back on track, better than they ever could have hoped to do with repressive therapy, which is what you are advocating no matter how you sugar it up.

Hey look! It's a bunch of REAL LIVE TRANS PEOPLE explaining dysphoria to the masses.

I'm not being a smart a** but to be honest my stance on this isn't likely to change a lot and I could care less what you say but I'd like to have a discussion about this anyway.

From what you brought me I don't think they should be barred from changing themselves now. I do still disagree with altering yourself because that to me is defiance of who you are and who you're born to be. I can't tell you how I'd feel if I was in this situation because I'm not that kind of person...

The best way i've been able to describe it is my mind expexting some things to be true about my body and my place in society, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, it can't quite grasp it. For example, my mind expects my voice to be deep, but when I speak and it hears how high it is, there's distress because of the disconnect.


...and maybe that's why I can't see why denying who you are biologically, physically, or mentally is okay. In this case we're speaking of biologically but to act different than what you are isn't okay but that doesn't mean you've got to be altered to feel good. There might be other solutions than just ignoring your assigned gender.

You have a very heavy "your birth dictates your destiny" attitude. It's romantic, and cute I guess. But for people who were born with dysphoria, we don't have the luxury of coming to terms with being dysphoric. To quote one of the people on reddit,

"[Dysphoria is like] my mind expexting some things to be true about my body and my place in society, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, it can't quite grasp it. For example, my mind expects my voice to be deep, but when I speak and it hears how high it is, there's distress because of the disconnect.
It's kind of like phantom limb syndrome. Your mind believes your limb exists, and it tries to make it move or feel, but the signals it gets back don't make any sense. So you feel disoriented, pain, panic, anxiety, a deep semse of wrongness or something missing."

That feeling never goes away, no matter how much you try. You always feel like something's missing, be it weight on your chest or a gentle flip-flopping between your legs.

It's fine to have some purist notion of what people do to their bodies, though I fail to see how these chemicals we take to transition are any different than any of the other chemicals that change our bodies, from medicine to hormones to pretty much any chemical in our bodies.

Your insistence that we mustn't embrace gendered dress/actions that are divorced from the gender attributed to our birth sex also has me puzzled. You seem convinced that what we do socially, such as wearing certain types of clothes or doing things a certain way, is somehow programmed into our biology. Or at the very least, you think acting outside our assigned gender violates some innate truth of our being. In that case, let me phrase this in a way you can relate to: As a transwoman, you inhabit a male body, everyone treats you and raises you as male, and you're expected to act male. There's just one problem: your soul is female, and it just can't come to terms with the socialization trying to be imprinted onto you. Your mind and body scuffle constantly, trying to make sense out of what you're supposed to be. And considering that the body is so much more malleable than the soul, the answer should be clear.

It's always been my understanding that your brain chemistry and thoughts should match up with your biology. It might sound bad but I think that having this gender dysphoria, while not the persons fault, means there is something wrong with you. The reason you'd be treated and raised as a male is because you are one. If you don't feel like one than something is off. Doesn't mean you're a horrible person. You just shouldn't be changing yourself in my opinion.

You keep telling me trans people should change. And yet, we do. We change very much for the better. But that's not good enough for you. You expect us to change our mind, which just ain't gonna happen. If you're gonna spin this into a brain chemistry thing, then I should inform you that I feel most dysphoric when I forget my meds, which causes my T to rise and my E to fall. My brain expects E. My brain has wanted E all along. We can play this game all day. Every fiber of my being is benefited by me transitioning. You just refuse to accept the ends because the means squick you out.

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The reason you'd be treated and raised as a male is because you are one.

Congrats. You're just another drop in the waterfall of resistance that trans people wade through. It doesn't mean you're a horrible person. It just means there's something wrong with you.

[Aws10]

Distorted_Rage

It's always been my understanding that your brain chemistry and thoughts should match up with your biology. It might sound bad but I think that having this gender dysphoria, while not the persons fault, means there is something wrong with you. The reason you'd be treated and raised as a male is because you are one. If you don't feel like one than something is off. Doesn't mean you're a horrible person. You just shouldn't be changing yourself in my opinion.

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say you really don't believe that. I think this is just some (clearly) ridiculous and non-legitimate argument to which you're clinging so that you can mask your hatred of trans people. You don't believe in changing yourself?? Please.

You see trans people and go "different???? gross!!!" as you clearly are not understanding or taking time to think about ANYTHING anybody in this forum is so kind to share with you about trans folk and dysphoria and what not.

[Disc Horse Enthusiast]

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Someone's gender is decided by nature.

Not really, though. How does that explain the fact that modern Western society predominantly only recognises two genders, while, for example, many South Asian societies have three, and some indigenous groups in the Americas have a concept of gender more complicated than a hard binary? (Answer: it doesn't. Gender is natural in the exact same sense that language or religion are — it's not essential, it's created by society.)

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People need to accept who they were born as biologically as well as mentally.

Why do they "need" to? If someone's body makes them feel suicidal, and nothing that they do on the psychological end makes them more content with their body... why do they have some sort of moral obligation to not make changes that make survival possible for them?
Also, reducing all divergence from the gender binary and one's assigned gender to being just a matter of body dysphoria is just outright inaccurate.

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That leads to denial of who and what you actually are.

Uh, no? If you had even the slightest understanding of gender, you'd understand that it's not genitalia, it's not chromosomes, it's not secondary characteristics, it's not hormone levels, and it's not anything else that falls under the uselessly ambiguous umbrella of "sex". It's something that can only truly be known by the person whose gender it is.

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I don't get to identify as a tree because I feel I should be or that inside I'm a tree. I shouldn't get to have myself altered because I feel that I'm supposed to be a tree. I'm not a tree. I'm not supposed to be a damn tree. Meaning there is no reason to deny that fact that I'm human.

Species and gender aren't comparable, though. It's well established that gender is a matter of social construction and personal identification, not a simple inference from morphology.

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Now that I think about it it's denial that makes these people who don't identify with their originally assigned gender that makes them confused. When you're eventually told you're right by so many people than that confusion leaves and stupidity takes it's place.

It's not "confusion", though. If someone is actually going to come out as anything other than cis, let alone go ahead and medically transition, they're probably pretty goddamn certain of who they are if they're going to take that enormous of a social risk.

[X of Castigation]

Distorted_Rage

It's always been my understanding that your brain chemistry and thoughts should match up with your biology. It might sound bad but I think that having this gender dysphoria, while not the persons fault, means there is something wrong with you. The reason you'd be treated and raised as a male is because you are one. If you don't feel like one than something is off. Doesn't mean you're a horrible person. You just shouldn't be changing yourself in my opinion.

It has never been that way. What is being described by others is a phenomenon which has been documented since before common era.