Manspreading: Yay or Nay?

Manspreading?

Yay	27.8%	[ 15 ]
Nay	72.2%	[ 39 ]
Total Votes:			[ 54 ]

[Riviera de la Mancha]

N3bu

Transit Authority. Tackling the hard issues, and earning their budget money, the hard way. An organisation and profession truly worthy of respect.

I read an interesting article which pointed out that the cost for the campaign is around 76,000 dollars. Not sure what to think about that...

I do think its good for transit authorities to address these issues. I take it you don't?

[Its A Crystal]

Riviera de la Mancha

sitting cow

We should also ban fat and smelly people

And screaming children

And people(women) that can't walk in shoes (heels) without heavy stepping and making a bunch of annoying noise

I am not sure how sensible a ban that would be in New York.

I have however seen a bus driver kick a woman off of a bus for being too loud and not controlling her kids. It was awesome.

Awesome? That knuckle dragging scoundrel forced a poor fragile woman off the bus, forcing her to walk on her delicate female feet, physically incapable of such a Herculean feat?

That beast.

I think the real question is where her husband was. One can't expect a delicate woman to be able to control their children. They are ill suited for it.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

The Daario Naharis

Riviera de la Mancha

sitting cow

We should also ban fat and smelly people

And screaming children

And people(women) that can't walk in shoes (heels) without heavy stepping and making a bunch of annoying noise

I am not sure how sensible a ban that would be in New York.

I have however seen a bus driver kick a woman off of a bus for being too loud and not controlling her kids. It was awesome.

Awesome? That knuckle dragging scoundrel forced a poor fragile woman off the bus, forcing her to walk on her delicate female feet, physically incapable of such a Herculean feat?

That beast.

I think the real question is where her husband was. One can't expect a delicate woman to be able to control their children. They are ill suited for it.

I was all for it. She was shouting at someone on the phone for at least 15 minutes and her kids were playing basketball on the bus. Its his job as the bus driver to ensure the safety and comfort of all passengers, and she was a detriment to it.

I am not sure where her husband was, or if she even had one. Indeed, he should have been there if at all possible. It was clear she could have used the help.

[Faustine Liem]

Keltoi Samurai

I'd rather be the crotch-er than the crotch-ee, y'know?

[Yoshpet]

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

If someone's taking up more than one seat, whether it's by spreading their legs as far as their hips allow, or giving their bag its own seat, just ask them to scoot over or stay on their side. I know no one wants to talk to strangers on mass transit, but it's more practical to ask people to mind themselves politely than it is to try to pursue passive aggressive policies that you give a delightfully sexist name.

The idea that able-bodied men must relinquish their seat to able-bodied women in lieu of first-come-first-serve is just benevolent sexism and against the interests of an equitable society. Be less patronizing to women. You can save the special treatment for your girlfriends and wives.

How are manners "against the interests of an equitable society."? I think that instilling an idea of giving up one's seat to a woman is respectful. If she declines, then that is fine, but it ought to be at least offered. To call it patronizing has nothing to do with superiority and more so operates under an assumed calculus of who ought to be able to endure being uncomfortable by standing better; women or men. Its only patronizing if you find being able to put up with this special kind of discomfort a superiority thing. If you do (not literally you mind you), then I think you need to step back and re-evaluate your life to find something that's truly worth holding over another's head.

You may think of it as polite but its application discriminates on sex. You presuppose women are less able to endure standing because they're women, and even go so far as to refer to it as calculus. You don't think a lot of modern women would find that reasoning offensive? They're less equipped to stand for awhile?

It's not a big deal, and I'm sure a lot of women would gladly take you up on the offer. The reasoning behind it is pretty obviously sexist though. confused

And is it ageist to assume that seniors are generally not capable of standing for long periods of time? We even see this codified in transit regulations, along with protecting pregnant women and the disabled. Why do they get special treatment when that elderly person could be Jack Lalanne, that pregnant woman could be Angelia Jolie, and the disabled person could be Jesse Billauer.

The answer is simple; there are assumptions going on about what these groups can and can't do. One such assumption is that I, as a man, can more readily bear being uncomfortable enough by standing. Its not pejorative in the least when the reasoning doesn't suggest such, and noting a physical difference and acting on that is not problematic, especially where, as here, the worst that results is an offer to sit.

And FYI, plenty of "modern women" greatly appreciate it when I offer them a seat and, more often than not, they take me up on the offer.

It makes sense to assume the elderly will have ailments that complicate standing for a long time. It does not make sense to think a young, able-bodied woman cannot handle it in comparison to her male peers. Women gladly opting to take advantage of benevolent sexism doesn't make it any more equitable.

Sexism is sexism, even if people like it, or take pride in it. It's not like I'm calling you a bad person or demanding you stop your behavior. Just own up to it.

It only makes sense to you because its in line with your cultural assumptions. Again, Jack Lallane would disagree with you that its fair to assume that the elderly will have ailments so they can't stand for a long time.

I am saying its hardly sexism where the behavior is not pejorative, and when it comes to deciding whether it is or is not pejorative, people should defer to members of the alleged victim group.

And I have clearly owned all I have said.

See, that's where you're wrong. Assuming women are less capable of standing than men is definitely pejorative. It's hilarious that you try to hide behind the fact that women will accept your offered seat. Not only are they being spared your insulting reasoning, but people take advantage of benevolent sexism directed at them all the time. Doesn't make it any less sexist just because you can find someone who enjoys it.

I'm sorry equal treatment undermines your white knight mentality. That is probably very frustrating for you.

[Lord of the Vine]

The20

Riviera de la Mancha

Keltoi Samurai

I disagree with the "A true gentleman stands" line, as it's perfectly acceptable to sit on a subway ride, but at the same time, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be acceptable for a gentleman to sit when there aren't more open seats than passengers, which would make any argument against spreading completely arbitrary.

Of course, whenever I'm on a crowded public transit system, I'm always the first person to vacate a seat, not out of a sense of manners, but because being seated on public transit when others are standing pretty much guarantees that your face is gonna wind up at crotch-level with someone you really don't want your face at crotch-level with. I'd rather be the crotch-er than the crotch-ee, y'know?

To me, the only time you as a guy should be sitting on a subway is if there is clearly space to sit on the subway, you have a medical condition requiring you to sit, or you are an elderly person.

I do the same, but that is because I was raised with manners. If you are an able person, you are supposed to stand so that others who can't may sit.

So women are not in a condition to stand in the subway?

See the underlined.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

You may think of it as polite but its application discriminates on sex. You presuppose women are less able to endure standing because they're women, and even go so far as to refer to it as calculus. You don't think a lot of modern women would find that reasoning offensive? They're less equipped to stand for awhile?

It's not a big deal, and I'm sure a lot of women would gladly take you up on the offer. The reasoning behind it is pretty obviously sexist though. confused

And is it ageist to assume that seniors are generally not capable of standing for long periods of time? We even see this codified in transit regulations, along with protecting pregnant women and the disabled. Why do they get special treatment when that elderly person could be Jack Lalanne, that pregnant woman could be Angelia Jolie, and the disabled person could be Jesse Billauer.

The answer is simple; there are assumptions going on about what these groups can and can't do. One such assumption is that I, as a man, can more readily bear being uncomfortable enough by standing. Its not pejorative in the least when the reasoning doesn't suggest such, and noting a physical difference and acting on that is not problematic, especially where, as here, the worst that results is an offer to sit.

And FYI, plenty of "modern women" greatly appreciate it when I offer them a seat and, more often than not, they take me up on the offer.

It makes sense to assume the elderly will have ailments that complicate standing for a long time. It does not make sense to think a young, able-bodied woman cannot handle it in comparison to her male peers. Women gladly opting to take advantage of benevolent sexism doesn't make it any more equitable.

Sexism is sexism, even if people like it, or take pride in it. It's not like I'm calling you a bad person or demanding you stop your behavior. Just own up to it.

It only makes sense to you because its in line with your cultural assumptions. Again, Jack Lallane would disagree with you that its fair to assume that the elderly will have ailments so they can't stand for a long time.

I am saying its hardly sexism where the behavior is not pejorative, and when it comes to deciding whether it is or is not pejorative, people should defer to members of the alleged victim group.

And I have clearly owned all I have said.

See, that's where you're wrong. Assuming women are less capable of standing than men is definitely pejorative. It's hilarious that you try to hide behind the fact that women will accept your offered seat. Not only are they being spared your insulting reasoning, but people take advantage of benevolent sexism directed at them all the time. Doesn't make it any less sexist just because you can find someone who enjoys it.

I'm sorry equal treatment undermines your white knight mentality. That is probably very frustrating for you.

For your assertion that it is "definitely pejorative", you provide nothing to support this idea. As I have said to you, unless you think the ability to stand is to be coveted and can be lorded over others, then you really need to get out there and find something of actual worth. That, or get some better self-esteem.

And its highly relevant when you assert that some group would find it sexist, where sexism, like any ism, typically assumes a sense of denigration or belittling on members of the group. Where people in that group generally don't find it as such, it greatly decreases the strength of a claim that its somehow pejorative.

Perhaps then the most funny thing is that, for all your assertions of how bad my reasoning is, you have offered nothing to challenge it. Given your performance thus far, I think you've been the biggest joke thus far if we are going to go down the ad hominem route.

[Yoshpet]

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

You may think of it as polite but its application discriminates on sex. You presuppose women are less able to endure standing because they're women, and even go so far as to refer to it as calculus. You don't think a lot of modern women would find that reasoning offensive? They're less equipped to stand for awhile?

It's not a big deal, and I'm sure a lot of women would gladly take you up on the offer. The reasoning behind it is pretty obviously sexist though. confused

And is it ageist to assume that seniors are generally not capable of standing for long periods of time? We even see this codified in transit regulations, along with protecting pregnant women and the disabled. Why do they get special treatment when that elderly person could be Jack Lalanne, that pregnant woman could be Angelia Jolie, and the disabled person could be Jesse Billauer.

The answer is simple; there are assumptions going on about what these groups can and can't do. One such assumption is that I, as a man, can more readily bear being uncomfortable enough by standing. Its not pejorative in the least when the reasoning doesn't suggest such, and noting a physical difference and acting on that is not problematic, especially where, as here, the worst that results is an offer to sit.

And FYI, plenty of "modern women" greatly appreciate it when I offer them a seat and, more often than not, they take me up on the offer.

It makes sense to assume the elderly will have ailments that complicate standing for a long time. It does not make sense to think a young, able-bodied woman cannot handle it in comparison to her male peers. Women gladly opting to take advantage of benevolent sexism doesn't make it any more equitable.

Sexism is sexism, even if people like it, or take pride in it. It's not like I'm calling you a bad person or demanding you stop your behavior. Just own up to it.

It only makes sense to you because its in line with your cultural assumptions. Again, Jack Lallane would disagree with you that its fair to assume that the elderly will have ailments so they can't stand for a long time.

I am saying its hardly sexism where the behavior is not pejorative, and when it comes to deciding whether it is or is not pejorative, people should defer to members of the alleged victim group.

And I have clearly owned all I have said.

See, that's where you're wrong. Assuming women are less capable of standing than men is definitely pejorative. It's hilarious that you try to hide behind the fact that women will accept your offered seat. Not only are they being spared your insulting reasoning, but people take advantage of benevolent sexism directed at them all the time. Doesn't make it any less sexist just because you can find someone who enjoys it.

I'm sorry equal treatment undermines your white knight mentality. That is probably very frustrating for you.

For your assertion that it is "definitely pejorative", you provide nothing to support this idea. As I have said to you, unless you think the ability to stand is to be coveted and can be lorded over others, then you really need to get out there and find something of actual worth. That, or get some better self-esteem.

And its highly relevant when you assert that some group would find it sexist, where sexism, like any ism, typically assumes a sense of denigration or belittling on members of the group. Where people in that group generally don't find it as such, it greatly decreases the strength of a claim that its somehow pejorative.

Perhaps then the most funny thing is that, for all your assertions of how bad my reasoning is, you have offered nothing to challenge it. Given your performance thus far, I think you've been the biggest joke thus far if we are going to go down the ad hominem route.

Might wanna read up on benevolent sexism so you look like less of a tool. What am I supposed to provide? Proof that discriminating on sex is sexism? Lol okay.

I don't have to be a woman to identify sexism. Ignoring my viewpoint because I am a man is also sexist. You're on a roll! lol

[The20]

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

Riviera de la Mancha

Keltoi Samurai

I disagree with the "A true gentleman stands" line, as it's perfectly acceptable to sit on a subway ride, but at the same time, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be acceptable for a gentleman to sit when there aren't more open seats than passengers, which would make any argument against spreading completely arbitrary.

Of course, whenever I'm on a crowded public transit system, I'm always the first person to vacate a seat, not out of a sense of manners, but because being seated on public transit when others are standing pretty much guarantees that your face is gonna wind up at crotch-level with someone you really don't want your face at crotch-level with. I'd rather be the crotch-er than the crotch-ee, y'know?

To me, the only time you as a guy should be sitting on a subway is if there is clearly space to sit on the subway, you have a medical condition requiring you to sit, or you are an elderly person.

I do the same, but that is because I was raised with manners. If you are an able person, you are supposed to stand so that others who can't may sit.

So women are not in a condition to stand in the subway?

See the underlined.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

[Lord of the Vine]

The20

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

Riviera de la Mancha

Keltoi Samurai

I disagree with the "A true gentleman stands" line, as it's perfectly acceptable to sit on a subway ride, but at the same time, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be acceptable for a gentleman to sit when there aren't more open seats than passengers, which would make any argument against spreading completely arbitrary.

Of course, whenever I'm on a crowded public transit system, I'm always the first person to vacate a seat, not out of a sense of manners, but because being seated on public transit when others are standing pretty much guarantees that your face is gonna wind up at crotch-level with someone you really don't want your face at crotch-level with. I'd rather be the crotch-er than the crotch-ee, y'know?

To me, the only time you as a guy should be sitting on a subway is if there is clearly space to sit on the subway, you have a medical condition requiring you to sit, or you are an elderly person.

I do the same, but that is because I was raised with manners. If you are an able person, you are supposed to stand so that others who can't may sit.

So women are not in a condition to stand in the subway?

See the underlined.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I'm wondering what relevance a woman's condition to stand has to do with Riviera explaining the requirements for men to be able to sit.

[The20]

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

Riviera de la Mancha

Keltoi Samurai

I disagree with the "A true gentleman stands" line, as it's perfectly acceptable to sit on a subway ride, but at the same time, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be acceptable for a gentleman to sit when there aren't more open seats than passengers, which would make any argument against spreading completely arbitrary.

Of course, whenever I'm on a crowded public transit system, I'm always the first person to vacate a seat, not out of a sense of manners, but because being seated on public transit when others are standing pretty much guarantees that your face is gonna wind up at crotch-level with someone you really don't want your face at crotch-level with. I'd rather be the crotch-er than the crotch-ee, y'know?

To me, the only time you as a guy should be sitting on a subway is if there is clearly space to sit on the subway, you have a medical condition requiring you to sit, or you are an elderly person.

I do the same, but that is because I was raised with manners. If you are an able person, you are supposed to stand so that others who can't may sit.

So women are not in a condition to stand in the subway?

See the underlined.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I'm wondering what relevance a woman's condition to stand has to do with Riviera explaining the requirements for men to be able to sit.

He said guys should stand if they are able to so people who are unable to stand may sit. Since he specifically mentioned guy should stand this implies girls belong to the group that is not in a condition to stand.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

It makes sense to assume the elderly will have ailments that complicate standing for a long time. It does not make sense to think a young, able-bodied woman cannot handle it in comparison to her male peers. Women gladly opting to take advantage of benevolent sexism doesn't make it any more equitable.

Sexism is sexism, even if people like it, or take pride in it. It's not like I'm calling you a bad person or demanding you stop your behavior. Just own up to it.

It only makes sense to you because its in line with your cultural assumptions. Again, Jack Lallane would disagree with you that its fair to assume that the elderly will have ailments so they can't stand for a long time.

I am saying its hardly sexism where the behavior is not pejorative, and when it comes to deciding whether it is or is not pejorative, people should defer to members of the alleged victim group.

And I have clearly owned all I have said.

See, that's where you're wrong. Assuming women are less capable of standing than men is definitely pejorative. It's hilarious that you try to hide behind the fact that women will accept your offered seat. Not only are they being spared your insulting reasoning, but people take advantage of benevolent sexism directed at them all the time. Doesn't make it any less sexist just because you can find someone who enjoys it.

I'm sorry equal treatment undermines your white knight mentality. That is probably very frustrating for you.

For your assertion that it is "definitely pejorative", you provide nothing to support this idea. As I have said to you, unless you think the ability to stand is to be coveted and can be lorded over others, then you really need to get out there and find something of actual worth. That, or get some better self-esteem.

And its highly relevant when you assert that some group would find it sexist, where sexism, like any ism, typically assumes a sense of denigration or belittling on members of the group. Where people in that group generally don't find it as such, it greatly decreases the strength of a claim that its somehow pejorative.

Perhaps then the most funny thing is that, for all your assertions of how bad my reasoning is, you have offered nothing to challenge it. Given your performance thus far, I think you've been the biggest joke thus far if we are going to go down the ad hominem route.

Might wanna read up on benevolent sexism so you look like less of a tool. What am I supposed to provide? Proof that discriminating on sex is sexism? Lol okay.

I don't have to be a woman to identify sexism. Ignoring my viewpoint because I am a man is also sexist. You're on a roll! lol

Too bad your ship for 'looking like a tool' is off on the horizon. It set sail when you started to use ad hominems, and then it really took off when you in effect asked me to make your arguments for you by asking me to look into a subject. And now its long gone when you feign outrage by being asked to support a claim you made.

I have never ignored your point. Each comment you made has been addressed. What we have now if a second post from you where nothing substantive has been said.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

The20

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

Mayor of Murderwood

The20

So women are not in a condition to stand in the subway?

See the underlined.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I'm wondering what relevance a woman's condition to stand has to do with Riviera explaining the requirements for men to be able to sit.

He said guys should only stand if they are able to so people who are unable to stand may sit. Since he specifically mentioned guy should stand this implies girls belong to the group that is not in a condition to stand.

Incorrect.

In that post, I explained my opinion on when a guy should take a seat on a public subway filled with people, as that is the scenario in the link and in the NY transit authorities' campaign. I noted two situations; where they themselves have some physical condition making it difficult for them to stand, or they are an elderly person.

These standards have no logical relation to women what so ever, as they are limited to when a man may sit. To illustrate, I have two desserts before you; a pie and a cake. I tell you "You can only have a piece of pie after you have eaten your veggies." Does this statement mean you cannot have a piece of cake either unless you have eaten your veggies? Does it mean that you must eat the cake and never the pie? No, because the statement only concerned pie. Cake was never mentioned.

[Yoshpet]

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

Riviera de la Mancha

Yoshpet

It makes sense to assume the elderly will have ailments that complicate standing for a long time. It does not make sense to think a young, able-bodied woman cannot handle it in comparison to her male peers. Women gladly opting to take advantage of benevolent sexism doesn't make it any more equitable.

Sexism is sexism, even if people like it, or take pride in it. It's not like I'm calling you a bad person or demanding you stop your behavior. Just own up to it.

It only makes sense to you because its in line with your cultural assumptions. Again, Jack Lallane would disagree with you that its fair to assume that the elderly will have ailments so they can't stand for a long time.

I am saying its hardly sexism where the behavior is not pejorative, and when it comes to deciding whether it is or is not pejorative, people should defer to members of the alleged victim group.

And I have clearly owned all I have said.

See, that's where you're wrong. Assuming women are less capable of standing than men is definitely pejorative. It's hilarious that you try to hide behind the fact that women will accept your offered seat. Not only are they being spared your insulting reasoning, but people take advantage of benevolent sexism directed at them all the time. Doesn't make it any less sexist just because you can find someone who enjoys it.

I'm sorry equal treatment undermines your white knight mentality. That is probably very frustrating for you.

For your assertion that it is "definitely pejorative", you provide nothing to support this idea. As I have said to you, unless you think the ability to stand is to be coveted and can be lorded over others, then you really need to get out there and find something of actual worth. That, or get some better self-esteem.

And its highly relevant when you assert that some group would find it sexist, where sexism, like any ism, typically assumes a sense of denigration or belittling on members of the group. Where people in that group generally don't find it as such, it greatly decreases the strength of a claim that its somehow pejorative.

Perhaps then the most funny thing is that, for all your assertions of how bad my reasoning is, you have offered nothing to challenge it. Given your performance thus far, I think you've been the biggest joke thus far if we are going to go down the ad hominem route.

Might wanna read up on benevolent sexism so you look like less of a tool. What am I supposed to provide? Proof that discriminating on sex is sexism? Lol okay.

I don't have to be a woman to identify sexism. Ignoring my viewpoint because I am a man is also sexist. You're on a roll! lol

Too bad your ship for 'looking like a tool' is off on the horizon. It set sail when you started to use ad hominems, and then it really took off when you in effect asked me to make your arguments for you by asking me to look into a subject. And now its long gone when you feign outrage by being asked to support a claim you made.

I have never ignored your point. Each comment you made has been addressed. What we have now if a second post from you where nothing substantive has been said.

Waving something away is not addressing it. I'm sorry you think the idea that women are less capable of standing than men is not only based in fact, but is a polite assessment worth defending.

It's okay if you don't want to engage in a real way. Being critical of the self is one of the hardest things to do, even more so when your flaws are rationalized as the work of a gentleman.

[Yoshpet]

Kind of weird how I'm supposed to support my claim that "women are less equipped to endure the pain of standing than men" is pejorative and sexist but Riviera has not even sourced his claim that women are actually less capable of standing due to their sex. I would LOVE to see that substantiated. rofl