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maleficars's avatar

O.G. Lover

            my issue with what you're saying is this: comparing the male dominance of cultures by how the women dress is hitting only a small point in the rather large spectrum of topics that need to be discussed to come to an actual, opinionated conclusion.

            however, if you're going to say that we're oppressed because women are sexualized, you need to understand that all cultures sexualize women. perhaps not in the same way - most are, dare i say a lot less tame than simply having women dress in a revealing way - but throughout history, women have always been seen as a point of pleasure for males through sexuality.

            let me ask you something, though. if we were truly sexualized to the point of oppression, would you have been allowed to dress in the less revealing way that you did during high school? perhaps you didn't have the best time, but you had a choice. you always had a choice. we are not sexualized to the point where the choice is being taken away from us. we can dress in as little as we want (save for full-on nudity, because that's illegal out in the open) or how much we want. it's a personal choice. it is not oppression.
If a girl wants to rock about in short shorts I have no problems with that emotion_awesome
Aren't there Islamic societies that are a lot worse than American society? In the US, people are largely free to form their own values. The problem comes when people try to instill their values into each other, not necessarily because people in the US are without value.

People in the US are always telling each other what to do. And with such diversity, that's bound to create conflict.
I understand your point that Islamic women may feel power, self-empowerment, when wearing that so they don't shame themselves, but that is not always the case; I also see the idea that more so traditional, stereotypical American women believe they have to wear less to get more from others, but that is not always the case either. The idea behind the comic is not simply that Islamic view is more modest, but because they're both equally inflicted by basis they should wear something different. Telling someone to strip down to their panties is as conflicting as telling someone to cover almost every inch of their being.
Al Thani
The Islamic culture isn't as male dominated as the western world, because in the Islamic society, we're not sexualized.
I think you're sexualized even more if the only way to have a normal life is to hide yourself in public. Seriously, women can run around naked here, they'll probably get a few strange looks, some inappropriate comments and i think to recall that indecent exposure is punishable with a fine, but generally speaking not much will happen.
What would happen if you try that in a muslim country?

Al Thani
I don't need to sleep with someone or date them in order for them to consider me a potential wife, a potential spouse.
What, you don't even date before you marry?

Al Thani
As a mother, who will have a son that is Muslim, I will always be respected and cherished despite the age of my child. Whereas Western mothers are often cursed, and bad talked by their daughters and sons. sweatdrop
That's a case of missing respect and it's not targeted to women but adults in general. Also, it's not nearly as bad as it is made out to be.
Socrates
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
This quote is 2500 years old and still up to date. What does that tell you?

Al Thani
I'm a little confused as to how Muslim ladies are "Male" dominated. xp
Who's the head of the family?
1012222345466778575765q's avatar

Beloved Inquisitor

They're both male dominated cultures...? I thought this was obvious? I'm still up for more rights instead of women being beaten to death for taking off their masks...
M i n t - C h a l k l o t's avatar

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the way you describe the modern treatment of women in the western world is only true in certain parts. I don't know much about Islam culture, I'am only familiar with eastern asian, western and indian culture, so i've only been exposed to the way the media portrays the Islam culture and the way I see them in everyday life, (haha the next chapter in my world history class happens to be about Islam). I don't know if this is true or not but doesn't women in the Islam culture get shunned for showing their ankles or in some countries their entire faces like in the picture?? At least that's what i've always thought. Women in the modern western world definitely sexualized and in a way looked upon as objects but isn't that the same case in the Islam culture where covering the woman is a way to conceal her to all but her husband (hiding the precious treasure, aka, possession) <--- [as someone else here also mentioned] But at least western women get a choice in what they want to wear and there's nothing the men can do about it other than name calling. Also some Islamic cultures do practice polygamy... i don't think i have to elaborate on that.
If what i said above is true, then the Islamic culture is most definitely more male dominate because the woman do not even have a choice of what to wear, what if it's scorching hot? you still have to wear clothing from head to toe?
Sure,some people will make fun of you for being prude, but most of those people who made fun of you in high school are probably mopping up floors, most respectable men in the modern culture wouldn't look down upon a woman just because they are "prude", there's scum in every culture, and you meet a lot of that scum in high school.
Some women like sex, have you though about that? what's wrong with sex anyway? why does revealing ourselves make us objects if we're doing it for ourselves? What's wrong with our bodies that we can't show them if we want? (why i'm a fan of nudist colonies) What if a woman sees a man simply as a way to sexually relieve herself just like the way a lot of men look at women? In the western culture this is not obviously not entirely acceptable, they would most likely be called a slut, but the fate of this kind of woman would be a lot worse in the Islamic world. DOWN WITH SLUT SHAMING! (at least until the way men look at women this way is also looked upon as shameful as the other way and not glorified, because I in no way condone just going around and F'ing everyone you find attractive.)
However, if what i have stated about Islam is not true and is just stereotype or assumptions, I apologize in advance.
GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

The dress code doesn't bother me that much, aside from the fact that I'm considered to be dressed proactively just for wearing large sweatshirts and EMT bdu pants.

No, what bugs me is throwing acid in the face of women just for attending school, young girls being unallowed to leave a burning building on account of their clothes, or giving women lashes just for being in a car with another male. THAT s**t get's me angry, you see.
GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

Al Thani

When women supposedly gained "rights" in the Western world, they forgot about their responsibilities and obligations to society.


and what ARE my responsibilities and obligations to society?

Ain't saying I have none, I just want to know what you think they are.

Quote:
What kind of rights are you talking about b.t.w?

Voting
Owning of property
Inheritence rights
Being allowed to be outside without a male escort
Pursuit of the trade or career of my choice
Equal representation in legal matters (my word is worth the same as a male's)

Just for a start.
chubsy wubsy's avatar

Bashful Genius

circus - narcotics
            my issue with what you're saying is this: comparing the male dominance of cultures by how the women dress is hitting only a small point in the rather large spectrum of topics that need to be discussed to come to an actual, opinionated conclusion.

            however, if you're going to say that we're oppressed because women are sexualized, you need to understand that all cultures sexualize women. perhaps not in the same way - most are, dare i say a lot less tame than simply having women dress in a revealing way - but throughout history, women have always been seen as a point of pleasure for males through sexuality.

            let me ask you something, though. if we were truly sexualized to the point of oppression, would you have been allowed to dress in the less revealing way that you did during high school? perhaps you didn't have the best time, but you had a choice. you always had a choice. we are not sexualized to the point where the choice is being taken away from us. we can dress in as little as we want (save for full-on nudity, because that's illegal out in the open) or how much we want. it's a personal choice. it is not oppression.


I wasn't born a Muslim.
My parents aren't Muslims, and I am the only Muslim in my entire family from my mother and father's side.

The point that I am trying to make is that girls who wish to dress modestly in high school, or University are often criticized and made fun of, even if they're not Muslims, why? Why must a girl who wears long dresses and long sleeved shirts (even in florida sweatdrop ) be made fun of and criticized?
chubsy wubsy's avatar

Bashful Genius

Kingstonalloy
Aren't there Islamic societies that are a lot worse than American society? In the US, people are largely free to form their own values. The problem comes when people try to instill their values into each other, not necessarily because people in the US are without value.

People in the US are always telling each other what to do. And with such diversity, that's bound to create conflict.


Yes people can form their own values, but America is supposedly a place where individuality is praised, yet when people try to be individuals they're shunned. I remember the big saying "Just try to fit in"... It's always in the back of your head. So when someone adopts values that do not fit in with the norm, which ironically is trying to be an 'individual', they're shunned and reprimanded because their values do not fit in. So, either you adopt our values (freedom freedom freedom) or we will constantly reprimand you for not doing so.

To many Muslim women, their cover is freedom. Freedom from being glared at, freedom for wearing what they want underneath, without having anyone comment on it. I don't need anyone to tell me I am thin, I am fat, I am beautiful, I am ugly, I am this and I am that. That's the whole idea behind the cover, freedom from people ever making some kind of comment or objectifying. Because, you do not know what I look like underneath.

Not everyone wears the Niqab >_<;. That's only SOME ladies, and it's a small percentage of the Muslim population, but we feel so free and so good when we wear it. Imagine, no one glares at you! You don't need to demonstrate your beautiful to the world, because if you are, who else needs to know it besides the people that truly matter to you? ^___^...
chubsy wubsy's avatar

Bashful Genius

The20
Al Thani
The Islamic culture isn't as male dominated as the western world, because in the Islamic society, we're not sexualized.
I think you're sexualized even more if the only way to have a normal life is to hide yourself in public. Seriously, women can run around naked here, they'll probably get a few strange looks, some inappropriate comments and i think to recall that indecent exposure is punishable with a fine, but generally speaking not much will happen.
What would happen if you try that in a muslim country?

Al Thani
I don't need to sleep with someone or date them in order for them to consider me a potential wife, a potential spouse.
What, you don't even date before you marry?

Al Thani
As a mother, who will have a son that is Muslim, I will always be respected and cherished despite the age of my child. Whereas Western mothers are often cursed, and bad talked by their daughters and sons. sweatdrop
That's a case of missing respect and it's not targeted to women but adults in general. Also, it's not nearly as bad as it is made out to be.
Socrates
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
This quote is 2500 years old and still up to date. What does that tell you?

Al Thani
I'm a little confused as to how Muslim ladies are "Male" dominated. xp
Who's the head of the family?


The reason why I hide myself is because I do not want to be sexualized, or commented about. I live in Canada right now, in the summer, I love taking the buses because I like to see and get to know characters (I write a lot), and I constantly see men glaring at girls who are not even wearing revealing clothes, with the most predator eyes. I don't ever want someone to look at me this way, or to know what shape of body I have, because that's none of their business. I like privacy, and I don't believe in making myself an open book for people to see.

Muslims maintain a sense of timidness, shyness and shame. We do things because of Allah, and no one else. If I can avoid making a man fall into temptation and committing sin through his looks at me, then I believe this is my obligation to do so. Muslims will never be naked in public, because it is shameful to do this. The culture is totally different, we will not even change in an all female washroom where people can see our private parts (even if they're girls), because these are intimate things for us. Not because of 'sexualization' entirely, but because we are timid and maintain a sense of shame and shyness. This is instilled in our religion and in our beliefs. We do not even show our private parts to our mother, or anyone else besides our spouse. Imagine anyone else seeing them! Do you think its appropriate for a father to see his daughter naked? sweatdrop

I don't date before I marry. I have a lot of proposals, but the way Muslims pick their spouses is different. We don't need to date, we can have a platonic friendship. I don't even shake, hug, or touch anyone of the opposite sex unless they're my immediate family. >____<;; The man who wants to marry me has to ask my father for my hand, then I either accept or say no. If I'm in the middle of the decision, I can get to know him through supervision, because I'd never be alone with a guy anyways. sweatdrop

There is no head of the family. The mother is revered and respected, and she is the decision maker for some things. The father is the decision maker for other things. If dad says no, go to mom. >_<
Pseudo-Onkelos's avatar

Adored Admirer

Al Thani
Muslims will never be naked in public, because it is shameful to do this.


What is shameful about the human body?

Al Thani
We do not even show our private parts to our mother, or anyone else besides our spouse. Imagine anyone else seeing them! Do you think its appropriate for a father to see his daughter naked? sweatdrop


Naturists do this and have no problem. Why? Because the human body is not a shameful thing. It is a natural thing. Humans are born naked. Your mother has seen you naked many times, as has your father. A child knows no sense of shame, unless he or she is taught that. Clothing only happened because it was to help protect against extreme heat and cold. That is all.
marshmallowcreampie's avatar

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OP, I feel like you missed the point of the comic. BOTH of the women think that the other one is oppressed, based on clothing. Maybe they're both right, maybe they're both wrong, maybe they're both a bit of each. It doesn't really express the point you bring up.

Anyway... Eh, I think there's more to rights and equality than not being sexualized. I'd rather be allowed to vote and have a high-status career and have men whistle at me, than be expected to stay at home and cover up and whatnot. You can't look at clothing alone as "proof" of one culture being better and more respectful than another.

What's more, women even get sexualized in Islamic cultures. Men from such cultures aren't completely lacking in sex drive. (if they did lack sex drive, covering up in the name of not tempting them wouldn't make sense, am I right? cat_rofl ) They might sexualize women in difference ways, but they do it nonetheless. I once exchanged phone numbers and FB links with a Saudi guy, was totally looking forward to dating him but then he wanted to jump into sex right away and I wasn't ready. cat_emo So I stopped talking to him. My dad teaches English to foreigners and a large portion of his students are from Saudi Arabia. I'd be lying if I said they never looked at a woman sexually. In fact, I have a rather amusing story where they got all excited about a female teacher with her elbows exposed. They're sexualizing her, just in a different way, and with different parts.

The way I see it, I think women should be allowed to wear what they want, but they shouldn't be pressured to do it by men or for by other women for reasons relating to men. I know one Muslim girl who always wears the headscarf and she gets REAL mad if you try to tell her it's because men were forcing or pressuring her into it. She insists it's her own choice and I have no reason not to believe her. (I should note that I've seen her sisters running around without headscarf or super modest clothing, so I'm really doubting that her parents make her dress like that) At the same time, she doesn't try to tell other girls to dress like she does. Personally I wouldn't be able to handle that, where I live it's over 90 degrees for most of the year and I have thick hair. If I wear anything on my head I become VERY prone to overheating.

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