Logic Game: Transgendered People

[Jeff the Kitten]

Cassidy Peterson

Jeff the Kitten

no other reason than that you can't deal with them emotionally

Who says there's no other reason?

Jeff the Kitten

You'd be happier with your secondary sex organs than suddenly having a ghost where they used to be and mega big bill if you ever want them back.

And of course, you can objectively prove this.

I can make implications from human psychology. Believe it or not people really do fit into the palm of your hand if you organize them using the statistics of different peer reviewed surveys.

And again, people with less to use can do less. No more booby play or breast feeding. That means you lose pleasure on two fronts. Add onto that the stress of feeling phantom extremities where real ones used to be, people looking at you funny because you no longer have said limbs, sometimes thinking about having said limbs back, and if you ever do want them back you undergo economic distress to do so (unless filthy rich).

Inversely:

You take medication to motivate you not to amputate yourself. As a result you now have avoided all of these cons in your potential decision. You take some anti-depressants and you get to live your life whole and happier than cutting off your boobs for no reason to achieve what your moody brain thinks is happiness.

[Jeff the Kitten]

ratgirl34

Jeff the Kitten

ratgirl34

Jeff the Kitten

ratgirl34

Nobody forces sex changes on anyone, it is an option for people who believe that they were born with the wrong parts. If they don't want anti-depressants, if what they want is their d**k exchanged for a v****a (or vise versa) and a pair of tits put on (or removed)... What is the harm in that? So they can't have kids, big deal.

Even if sex changes were forced on people, in what way would that be different from forcing them to take anti-depressants instead?

I'm on anti-depressants, if my problems could be solved by a sex change I'd do that. I am not, however, a transgender so such a surgery would be pointless and damaging to my psyche. For people who are transgender the surgery would be beneficial.

Health is about more than just doing what you want. If you want to lob off your head you'd probably be found in poor/no health by the people who noticed you missing.

Anti-depressants can greatly boost your mood, and sex repressors can take away those self mutilating desires that you were once so hung up about as a transgendered person. Not only does this buy time for the people trying to preserve your body and your happiness, but it also does away with all of that damage you'd needlessly be inflicted else-wise.

It's about doing what keeps you mentally stable in the long run. If my happiness, and therefore mental stability, can be aided by an optional procedure then there is no harm in it for me as long as I am aware of any side effects that may take away options in future.

You seem to be under the impression that people are being forced to undergo the surgery or are not informed of the side effects. They go into the operating room after taking the time to thoroughly examine their options and how the surgery will impact their life.

Hate to break it to you, but anti-depressants often kill sex drive. My sex drive is presently so low that I've had relationships end on that basis alone. I get interested in sex once every few months, but my reproductive system functions quite normally. This is a massive buzz-kill for any man that I am interested in dating, and while I can't blame them I am unable to function normally at all if I stop the anti-depressants. What would you find sexy about a woman curled up on the floor sobbing with no idea what set her off? Or when her mood swings in another direction and she throws a hissy fit over the placement of a chair? Which then sets her off on the crying fit because she is scared of her own tantrums?

I hate to break it to you, but your answer to all life's mental problems is not the be-all end-all. And if there are other options for people to get the same result, why not just shut up and let them have it? If they are not endangering their lives, or anyone else's, what right do you have to tell them they can't have it?

I'm under no impressions about doctor patient confidentiality or federal laws regarding treatment disclosure to patients. My argument is that society cannot tolerate these kind of optional procedures because they do, in fact, cause physical and mental harm in the long run to people who choose to undergo them, where safer and impermanent options that allow for a better quality of life are available.

These qualities are including, but not limited to: A functioning reproductive system, full nerve endings in the sex organs to maximize the pleasure and fulfillment a person gets from masturbating and having sex, an openly variable choice when it comes to conceiving or having a child conceived in you, and finally, given proper neuro-technology; a mind that is capable of accepting on an emotional level the genitals, nerves, and child making ability that a person has, rather than trying to a very incomplete job of shifting it.

Yeah, you're a bit of a nut job. Not all people need to have kids to feel complete.

That you hinge all your 'logic' on that is a serious flaw that I don't wish to pursue. Have fun rubbing two brain cells together.

I see no premise in these statements of yours. This isn't arguing on your behalf, it's abuse.

[Cassidy Peterson]

Jeff the Kitten

No more booby play

Well woe is me, tits are the only part of the body a woman could possibly derive pleasure from. Do you seriously expect me to believe that a mastectomy will leave me wholly numb in my entire chest for the rest of my life?

Jeff the Kitten

or breast feeding.

Firstly assuming that I'll ever have kids (hopefully yes - but it's possible I'll be adopting kids who are already past breastfeeding age), secondly assuming that losing the tits is a higher priority than my children (very much no). Maybe try asking questions about who I am before jumping to conclusions based on literally zero evidence.

Jeff the Kitten

That means you lose pleasure on two fronts.

Please see aforementioned statement about eternal numbness and your baseless assumptions.

Jeff the Kitten

Add onto that the stress of feeling phantom extremities where real ones used to be

I'm under stress either way, why not go with the stress of my choosing?

Jeff the Kitten

people looking at you funny because you no longer have said limbs

They look at me funny already.

Jeff the Kitten

sometimes thinking about having said limbs back

Sometimes I think about having a tail, too.

Jeff the Kitten

and if you ever do want them back you undergo economic distress to do so (unless filthy rich).

Why do you think I haven't already taken money into consideration?

Jeff the Kitten

Inversely:

You take medication to motivate you not to amputate yourself.

Noooo I take medication to stop myself randomly screaming until I puke. The feelings I have towards my body are not even remotely severe enough to require medicating away.

Jeff the Kitten

As a result you now have avoided all of these cons in your potential decision.

And am instead stuck with the cons of not having lopped them off.

Jeff the Kitten

You take some anti-depressants

I'm already on anti-depressants.

Jeff the Kitten

and you get to live your life whole and happier than cutting off your boobs for no reason

Well, no reason except for the back pain, shoulder pain, the disrespect, the fact that they get in the way, they've been increasing in size regardless of my overall body mass (including a period of significant weight loss during which time they still grew), I have literally choked on my own chest fat, I can't run and sometimes I can't even walk very fast without them bouncing around like a juggler's gotten hold of them, the bouncing is frequently painful, I can't carry things in front of myself without either knocking them over or crushing my breasts, sometimes crushing my chest anyways, throwing my back out because I'm trying to lift something and it gets caught under my breasts and get knocked off balance trying not to drop it, not being able to lie on my stomach, chafing (and sometimes sores) from wearing my bras tight enough to actually hold them up, excess sweat and body odor due to the surface area of skin-against-skin inside my bra, having to actually lift them up to clean under them properly, having to lift them up and place them on the table like some sort of freak if I want to sit close to the table without crushing them against the table's edge (or else slouching weirdly to get them under the table's edge)...

Jeff the Kitten

to achieve what your moody brain thinks is happiness.

Because literally nobody who has ever undergone elective surgery after decades of consideration has led a better life afterwards.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

Jeff the Kitten

Transgendered people can have their genitals cut up and rearranged.

As a result of having their genitals cut up and rearranged, transgendered people do nerve damage to their genitals which

hinders sexual pleasure and sexual function. Their is also the psychological effect of no longer having a body part where

one used to be.

Another result of this procedure is infertility.

Transgendered people can inject cross sex hormones into their bodies.

As a result of injecting cross sex hormones into the body, transgendered people are made vulnerable to a number of side

effects along with some irreversible physiological changes like altered bone growth (depending on the age that they

undergo these treatments).

Another result of this procedure is infertility.

Prior to these operations, almost all transgendered people have bodies with normal bone growth, sex organs that sport a

full set of nerve endings, and a functioning reproductive system. Their are no side effects of letting normal puberty take

place in most cases.

Inversely:

Medications exist that can ease depression: either rational or clinical.

Medications exist that stunts sex drive and therefore can lessen stress related to sexual desires and/or identity.

There is an economic treasure trove the career fields of neurology and biotechnology.

With these things in mind:

It can be inferred that there are healthier options for transgendered people than sex change surgery and cross-sex hormone

therapy.

Remember:

Healthy, happy people are more productive and imaginative.












Why are we hurting these people?

I am pretty sure you are not the standard of "logic".

[Cassidy Peterson]

Jeff the Kitten

ratgirl34

Not all people need to have kids to feel complete.

I see no premise in these statements of yours.

Do you see it now?

[XeroDK]

I was skimming through this thread and the stupidity here is unbelievable. Ignorance, ignorance everywhere!

[XeroDK]

Jeff the Kitten

Transgendered people can have their genitals cut up and rearranged.

As a result of having their genitals cut up and rearranged, transgendered people do nerve damage to their genitals which

hinders sexual pleasure and sexual function. Their is also the psychological effect of no longer having a body part where

one used to be.

Another result of this procedure is infertility.

Transgendered people can inject cross sex hormones into their bodies.

As a result of injecting cross sex hormones into the body, transgendered people are made vulnerable to a number of side

effects along with some irreversible physiological changes like altered bone growth (depending on the age that they

undergo these treatments).

Another result of this procedure is infertility.

Prior to these operations, almost all transgendered people have bodies with normal bone growth, sex organs that sport a

full set of nerve endings, and a functioning reproductive system. Their are no side effects of letting normal puberty take

place in most cases.

Inversely:

Medications exist that can ease depression: either rational or clinical.

Medications exist that stunts sex drive and therefore can lessen stress related to sexual desires and/or identity.

There is an economic treasure trove the career fields of neurology and biotechnology.

With these things in mind:

It can be inferred that there are healthier options for transgendered people than sex change surgery and cross-sex hormone

therapy.

Remember:

Healthy, happy people are more productive and imaginative.












Why are we hurting these people?

People have a choice to do whatever they want to their bodies. Although there are limits changing one's sex is not out of the question. Your ignorance stems from your lack of knowledge of trans-people and their desires. Transgendered people don't need to have surgery to remove or alter their genitalia and many don't want to,Transsexuals are people who underwent that sex-change surgery.

There are also many other options for trans-people to have children. Many freeze their sperm or eggs before transitioning and have them afterwards. You say making people infertile is wrong? They had their chance to make babies just like everyone else. In this day and age, how can that argument hold water?

[Jeff the Kitten]

This thread feels broken to me. All that's being repeated, over and over, is that you don't need to have kids to feel whole. It's like the only premise that gets stuck in the loop is the one that's easiest to misinterpret.

Things cause permanent infertility using modern treatment.

Permanent infertility is just one of the unnecessary things that modern medicine can allow one to avoid.

So are blot clots from hormone treatment, abnormal bone growth, retarded sexual pleasure and ability to orgasm, and whatever else the transgendered prize package at your local mental health clinic is more than happy to hand out.

There are healthier alternative methods that I have mentioned in this thread. If I had to use a metaphor to describe the difference between the two: Would you rather have a doctor remove your inflamed appendix with sterilized arms and hands, or after they had just used the bathroom and not washed their hands?

Are you all so nihilistic about medicine that you think the ends justify the means?

Are you so incapable of being pragmatic that you'd have patients choose how sanitized their surgeons were instead of trained medical professionals devoted to be practical when treating the ill?

Is it perhaps that you yourselves suffer from so much propaganda regarding the transgendered that you take in from the media and anti-bullying campaigns that you dare not use common sense because going against the grain means making an enemy of the status quo?

Do you think the APA is incorruptible because the government has it's hand in the pie? Need not I remind you that not fifty years ago they classified homosexuality as a mental illness when it clearly is not a harm to the self or others?

[Cassidy Peterson]

Jeff the Kitten

All that's being repeated, over and over, is that you don't need to have kids to feel whole.

Because you keep harping on it being so important.

Also, there's a whole lot of stuff that's not about kids in my last large post.

Jeff the Kitten

Permanent infertility is just one of the unnecessary things that modern medicine can allow one to avoid.

Or cause. You are deliberately refusing to acknowledge that healthy people might want to be permanently infertile.

Jeff the Kitten

So are blot clots from hormone treatment, abnormal bone growth, retarded sexual pleasure and ability to orgasm, and whatever else the transgendered prize package at your local mental health clinic is more than happy to hand out.

Well, if modern medicine can help us avoid those things, that makes it less of problem that trans people might face them, right?

Jeff the Kitten

If I had to use a metaphor to describe the difference between the two: Would you rather have a doctor remove your inflamed appendix with sterilized arms and hands, or after they had just used the bathroom and not washed their hands?

I'd rather have him sterilized, but if he hasn't got time, so be it.

Jeff the Kitten

Are you all so nihilistic about medicine that you think the ends justify the means?

If the ends are a better feeling about yourself and the means don't hurt anyone but yourself? Absolutely.

Jeff the Kitten

Are you so incapable of being pragmatic that you'd have patients choose how sanitized their surgeons were instead of trained medical professionals devoted to be practical when treating the ill?

Nobody going to say that surgeons shouldn't wash up before surgery. But if it's a choice between washing up and surgery, do the damn surgery.

Jeff the Kitten

Is it perhaps that you yourselves suffer from so much propaganda regarding the transgendered that you take in from the media and anti-bullying campaigns that you dare not use common sense because going against the grain means making an enemy of the status quo?

It's not because I "suffer from so much" propaganda, it's that I believe people should be allowed bodily autonomy, be it tattoos or sex reassignment, so long as they aren't forcing harm on others.

Jeff the Kitten

Do you think the APA is incorruptible because the government has it's hand in the pie? Need not I remind you that not fifty years ago they classified homosexuality as a mental illness when it clearly is not a harm to the self or others?

There's still people nowadays who think it "clearly" is a harm to the self or others.

[shadow22cat]

Just so you know, it's transgender, not 'transgendered'. That pisses off a lot of people right there. Anyways, not every trans (I use trans to encompass the spectrum) person goes through a surgery or goes on HRT. They might socially transition, though.

About the fertility thing and everyone seeming to think trans people can't have kids... I'm a contradiction to that considering my father is trans. Male to female. I still call her Dad because I find a lot of the 'neutral' stuff kind of cold. Trying to find more though. When we see people we don't know, I say she's my parent. (It makes it easier, because I only have one parent left.) Some trans people wait if they want kids, and then do HRT and/or any surgeries. Some bank their sperm or ova. There are cases where some people have gone through HRT and some of the surgeries, and still have had kids. It can happen. And, there's lots of options out there.

About the nerve damage thing if they have GRS. The science of it has advanced so much, they're able to move the nerve endings to the right places. It's really fascinating. There is a rare chance you'll have nerve damage nowadays. My dad went through the first few major stages of that, and she definitely still has her nerves intact. In fact, she said she might feel more now. A lot of trans people feel like they have a phantom organ down there. Like before any surgery, they might feel a numbness to that area. A lot of them after GRS feel that things are more 'correct' feeling. There was a study on it a while back. A lot of people get an increased sex drive too. (That happens a lot of the time with just hormones...)

We all have a certain amount of testosterone and estrogen in our systems. HRT helps to get them to normal amounts for the gender they identify as. It's natural. There's no extra chemicals in it, they just rev up what's there. They get kind of a 2nd puberty this way. And, trust me, many have thought this over most of their lives before they even start the treatment. They're relieved to finally be able to get it.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Jeff the Kitten

Sex change surgery, hormone replacement therapy, and transitional counseling. Don't believe me? DSM5.org

Your search - "hormone replacement therapy" site:http://www.dsm5.org - did not match any documents.

[HMS Thunder Child]

Infertile to begin with, get plenty of pleasure from sex (and a desire to have it), and orgasms.

Nobody likes a concern troll, anyways.

[Jeff the Kitten]

Lucky~9~Lives

Jeff the Kitten

Sex change surgery, hormone replacement therapy, and transitional counseling. Don't believe me? DSM5.org

Your search - "hormone replacement therapy" site:http://www.dsm5.org - did not match any documents.

Go to the gender dysphoria page, scroll down until you see treatments.

[Jeff the Kitten]

Cassidy Peterson

Jeff the Kitten

All that's being repeated, over and over, is that you don't need to have kids to feel whole.

Because you keep harping on it being so important.

Also, there's a whole lot of stuff that's not about kids in my last large post.

Jeff the Kitten

Permanent infertility is just one of the unnecessary things that modern medicine can allow one to avoid.

Or cause. You are deliberately refusing to acknowledge that healthy people might want to be permanently infertile.

Jeff the Kitten

So are blot clots from hormone treatment, abnormal bone growth, retarded sexual pleasure and ability to orgasm, and whatever else the transgendered prize package at your local mental health clinic is more than happy to hand out.

Well, if modern medicine can help us avoid those things, that makes it less of problem that trans people might face them, right?

Jeff the Kitten

If I had to use a metaphor to describe the difference between the two: Would you rather have a doctor remove your inflamed appendix with sterilized arms and hands, or after they had just used the bathroom and not washed their hands?

I'd rather have him sterilized, but if he hasn't got time, so be it.

Jeff the Kitten

Are you all so nihilistic about medicine that you think the ends justify the means?

If the ends are a better feeling about yourself and the means don't hurt anyone but yourself? Absolutely.

Jeff the Kitten

Are you so incapable of being pragmatic that you'd have patients choose how sanitized their surgeons were instead of trained medical professionals devoted to be practical when treating the ill?

Nobody going to say that surgeons shouldn't wash up before surgery. But if it's a choice between washing up and surgery, do the damn surgery.

Jeff the Kitten

Is it perhaps that you yourselves suffer from so much propaganda regarding the transgendered that you take in from the media and anti-bullying campaigns that you dare not use common sense because going against the grain means making an enemy of the status quo?

It's not because I "suffer from so much" propaganda, it's that I believe people should be allowed bodily autonomy, be it tattoos or sex reassignment, so long as they aren't forcing harm on others.

Jeff the Kitten

Do you think the APA is incorruptible because the government has it's hand in the pie? Need not I remind you that not fifty years ago they classified homosexuality as a mental illness when it clearly is not a harm to the self or others?

There's still people nowadays who think it "clearly" is a harm to the self or others.

"As long as you are the only one that you're hurting."

So if your friend killed themselves to be happy, you'd go right on supporting it to your other friends.

If you saw your daughter cutting her wrists, you'd say "Oh well, as long as you're only hurting yourself. If it's only to make you happier by reducing stress."

If your son got a tattoo of a swastika on his forehead and a bunch of other white power s**t on the rest of his face, you'd be as Zen as the Buddha himself because he's only hurting himself.

Or maybe you could acknowledge that when people hurt themselves, and that it's legal, and that people are advocating for it; that society as a whole suffers from the people who hurt themselves lashing out in pain and anger.

Society also suffers from the consensus that it is ok because you're only hurting yourself. What's to stop trans-species people from cutting off limbs to better resemble the species that they falsely believe themselves to be? How about fetish people who want to become quadruple amputees because it turns them on soooooo much?

Things like this put a strain on the economy having to take care of all the new medical problems these procedures create.

Things like this put a strain on making people smarter, because believing that you are something that you are not, like the opposite sex or another species, only attacks the logical portion of the brain. Just like being a creationist attacks your ability to understand biology and science as a whole.

Explaining away things like denying that you are one sex and that your genitals are in fact real and not wrong by saying that some ideological "gender" exists (It does not. Not all members of a sex behave the same way in the same societies, and certainly not in the different societies of the world. Cherry picking bits and pieces of what men and women stereotypically do and calling it gender is pseudo-science).

[Jeff the Kitten]

HMS Thunder Child

Infertile to begin with, get plenty of pleasure from sex (and a desire to have it), and orgasms.

Nobody likes a concern troll, anyways.

Nobody likes a liar. No way in hell do you have nerve endings severed in a major reconstructive surgery and then get "plenty" of pleasure from sex. I'm assuming you're MTF based on your avatar, and let me tell you, because men have fewer nerve ending in their bits to begin with; there's an even lower chance that you're experiencing anything close to what females naturally do OR what you could have had you not chosen to emasculate yourself.