Life is not sacred, leave my womb alone!

[Roih Uvet]

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

MegaTurkey is hardly being arrogant. This may be rude, but Steam Punk Adept is talking like he wants to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about consequences. Steam could just not have sex to begin with. If he ends up getting a girl pregnant, it'll be because he himself did that, not the doctor. Honestly, suing a doctor because of your actions.

Also, Steam just wants the doctor to do that, SO he could have as much sex as he wants, and that is certainly compulsive. The doctors recognize that, and don't see it a valid reason to sterilize, because compulsive decisions are often the ones you regret most.

Then, if he changes his mind, it'll be too late. The doctors could REALLY be blamed for allowing him to make such a decision.

You realize that this argument could be used to justify banning abortion, yes?

So it could. So now I can argue against Steam Punk AND OP! biggrin

I was pleasantly surprised, here.

I was expecting some claptrap about how abortion is so tooootally different.

Unfortunately, it seems the Gaia community can be a bit... one-sided.

The Gaia Community is partly why I started on my MRA phase I had a few years ago. Now I thin k it's all horse s**t

[Blue Beastie]

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

MegaTurkey is hardly being arrogant. This may be rude, but Steam Punk Adept is talking like he wants to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about consequences. Steam could just not have sex to begin with. If he ends up getting a girl pregnant, it'll be because he himself did that, not the doctor. Honestly, suing a doctor because of your actions.

Also, Steam just wants the doctor to do that, SO he could have as much sex as he wants, and that is certainly compulsive. The doctors recognize that, and don't see it a valid reason to sterilize, because compulsive decisions are often the ones you regret most.

Then, if he changes his mind, it'll be too late. The doctors could REALLY be blamed for allowing him to make such a decision.

You realize that this argument could be used to justify banning abortion, yes?

So it could. So now I can argue against Steam Punk AND OP! biggrin

I was pleasantly surprised, here.

I was expecting some claptrap about how abortion is so tooootally different.

Unfortunately, it seems the Gaia community can be a bit... one-sided.

The Gaia Community is partly why I started on my MRA phase I had a few years ago. Now I thin k it's all horse s**t

*Googles MRA* Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

Welp, now I can ask what MRA is. XD

[Roih Uvet]

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

So it could. So now I can argue against Steam Punk AND OP! biggrin

I was pleasantly surprised, here.

I was expecting some claptrap about how abortion is so tooootally different.

Unfortunately, it seems the Gaia community can be a bit... one-sided.

The Gaia Community is partly why I started on my MRA phase I had a few years ago. Now I thin k it's all horse s**t

*Googles MRA* Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

Welp, now I can ask what MRA is. XD

Nono. Men's rights activist. Think feminist, but for men.

What do they do?

Whine about feminism.

There are a handful on this board.

[Blue Beastie]

Roih Uvet

Nono. Men's rights activist. Think feminist, but for men.

What do they do?

Whine about feminism.

There are a handful on this board.

Oh! I see. I'm still not terribly clear on what feminism is. So, I'm not going to comment on MRA. XD

[Roih Uvet]

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Nono. Men's rights activist. Think feminist, but for men.

What do they do?

Whine about feminism.

There are a handful on this board.

Oh! I see. I'm still not terribly clear on what feminism is. So, I'm not going to comment on MRA. XD

Feminism is basically policy that benefits women, sometimes at the expense of men, but not always.

[Blue Beastie]

Roih Uvet

Blue Beastie

Roih Uvet

Nono. Men's rights activist. Think feminist, but for men.

What do they do?

Whine about feminism.

There are a handful on this board.

Oh! I see. I'm still not terribly clear on what feminism is. So, I'm not going to comment on MRA. XD

Feminism is basically policy that benefits women, sometimes at the expense of men, but not always.

In any case, I've always believed in well thought out, coherent, non-hateful/non-combatant dialogue to solve problems. "Whining" certainly isn't a way to go about things, I don't think. x3
Only with honest dialogue and pure intentions will we know something is worth defending or to be put aside, I believe. 3nodding

[Steam Punk Adept]

Blue Beastie

Hexatonic Scale

MegaTurkey

32 may still be considered "young" in terms of this particular situation. And you've been attending previous consultations at a (much) younger age than you are now, making you even less eligible for the procedure at that time. Referring to you as "young" isn't a matter of simply undermining you for the sake of being derogatory, the point is that as a person your age, your circumstances, not just socio-economic, are still very open to change, as are your personal views as you get older and for a procedure that is considered irreversible and has equally or more effective risk free alternatives, that is an unnecessary commitment to something not just in the long term if you eventually want a reversal (only time can tell) but even the short-term with a risk of failure and other morbidities. You could argue this is what you really want and you're sure of it until the world ends but another issue is that there are better alternatives when considering this situation impartially. Is there any particular reason why non-surgical methods of contraception aren't suitable for you? Society and the doctors you have seen aren't forcing you to have children, by all means practice effective methods of contraception as the majority of the sexually-active western population do.

I don't even want to address the specific procedure, but this is arrogant as ******** hell.

Who are you to tell anyone, aside from yourself, that they are not mature or forward thinking enough to make decisions that effect their life?

Eleven and twelve year olds can make decisions about their life, and by eighteen society says that you're mature enough to take full responsibility for your actions.

So yes, you can say that you're not trying to be derogatory, but that's like someone who says, "I'm not racist, but <super racist thing>". Just because you say so doesn't mean it's so.

MegaTurkey is hardly being arrogant. This may be rude, but Steam Punk Adept is talking like he wants to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about consequences. Steam could just not have sex to begin with. If he ends up getting a girl pregnant, it'll be because he himself did that, not the doctor. Honestly, suing a doctor because of your actions.

Also, Steam just wants the doctor to do that, SO he could have as much sex as he wants, and that is certainly compulsive. The doctors recognize that, and don't see it a valid reason to sterilize, because compulsive decisions are often the ones you regret most.

Then, if he changes his mind, it'll be too late. The doctors could REALLY be blamed for allowing him to make such a decision.

Congrats, you've made a massive assumption about my reasoning for wanting a vasectomy, and have successfully made yourself look like the biggest a** on Gaia! You should feel proud.

I've been with the same partner for several years now. She is a carrier for Huntington Disease, and watched her own father deteriorate and die from it. I am a carrier for Harlequin Ichthyosis, from both of my parents (it's actually a wonder I wasn't born with it, in which case I'd have died soon after birth). Any child I have will be born with the disease. As for Huntington Disease, there is a 1 in 2 chance any child my partner has will have that.

Genetic issues aside, I don't want kids period, and I never wanted them. It has nothing to do with wanting sex, and everything to do with not wanting to bring a child into the world only so it can suffer a terrible, horrible disease, and die before it reaches a single year on Earth. THAT more than anything else is why, if my partner gets pregnant (she couldn't bring herself to have an abortion, even at the expense of her own life), I will sue every doctor who denied me a vasectomy for every penny I can pinch.

Go ahead and tell me again how selfish I am for not wanting children, you arrogant p***k. And I'm not about to give up the bonding experience that is sex simply because you get your jimmies in a twist about abortion. Sex is about more than making babies you ignorant ********. Do the world a favor, next time you want to assume anything about anyone without knowing the details, kindly go ******** yourself in the a** with a searing hot metal poker.

[8 Y]

Liliahna

Although I agree with you I do not in the same sense.

I do believe it is wrong but there is so much to take into account that simply saying "it is wrong do not do it" is wrong. A person must decide these things for themselves.

Those ladies who chose to abort and write about their thoughts and emotional state afterwards would not walk up to someone on the street to protest abortion. They are simply feeling sorry for themselves and a release is to talk about their experience. To help them move on and understand or remind themselves why they did it. It's easier to type behind the screen of a laptop than to speak to a person face to face. It sounds harsh but that isn't proof of whether one should abort or not. I know that if I fell pregnant and aborted it I would regret it but I also know that right now I would still go ahead to abort even with my health saying it's possible I will not have children in the future. I say this because you cannot use one persons experience against another. There are too many experiences to compare.

As I said, if I were pregnant right now, I would abort. I would do it because the man would most likely not be involved and I am not financially stable to carry through with it. I would not want the burden of looking after my child on anyone else. I would want my child to receive the best life it could and knowing I cannot do that right now is where the hurt and regret from the abortion will surface. It is not down to the action itself of aborting but the knowing it wasn't the fetus's fault that I had to do it. I'd feel further regret if I do actually become infertile in the future as if not to make it up to my next child however I would adopt and do just as much if not more for them.

I watched a clip to a trailer for a movie based off a real story and it said 'it's easy to be given choices, it's harder to make them'. I know that although I'd make the decision to abort I would be terrified of carrying through the procedure. It is also possible in that sense that I would continue the pregnancy full term. My family however, are strict to the t. If I were pregnant and not able to look after it they'd push me into abortion and support me through it. I say I'd abort but it wouldn't be what I want. I'd want to carry the pregnancy but that would be selfish and irresponsible of me.

The next thought that comes to mind is why is it selfish if you're protecting a life you helped create? Who are they to say what is responsible and what is not?...This is what I mean by factors to consider. It literally comes down to a yes or no and you as the decision maker has to live with it. The real question is which could you live with more?

[Fermionic]

AliKat1988

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

As I've said previously, the defence is contingent upon the truth of several premises, I'm not asserting their blanket suitability.

Yes I realize that which was why I said "people that use the argument asking people if they would want to have been aborted" instead of "you." I was pointing out some facts that destroy the argument so many pro-lifers use in an oversimplified, unthinking manner.

It probably doesn't destroy their argument, as pro-lifers usually retain more of a focus on existence of life rather than quality of life. When one takes the former to be axiomatically good, and the latter to be comparably superfluous, it isn't so easy to treat as you suggest.

I said it destroys the argument in regards to this specific form of argument. It doesn't destroy the claim about the value of life as inherently good, just breaks apart the manipulative claim that if given the option the fetus would favor living. They can use other arguments instead which are more subjective, but not so easy to dismiss with facts-like saying life is valuable in itself.

I would think that most people would see it clearly that most people would consider it good that they are currently alive rather than aborted.

Have you ignored the case of my friend who was put up for adoption had abusive adoptive parents and thinks abortion would have been the better choice for her mother? Doesn't the claim "most" ignore how abortion is only a small portion of pregnancies and usually there are exacerbating circumstances that make abortion preferable?

Yes, I ignored the case of your friend.

"A better choice for her mother", implies that having a child aborted would have been better for the mother than having a child and then giving it up for adoption.
If it would have been "preferable", that is the same as saying "I would rather not have lived than lived as I have". She maintains this, this friend of yours?

[Blue Beastie]

Steam Punk Adept

Blue Beastie

Hexatonic Scale

MegaTurkey

32 may still be considered "young" in terms of this particular situation. And you've been attending previous consultations at a (much) younger age than you are now, making you even less eligible for the procedure at that time. Referring to you as "young" isn't a matter of simply undermining you for the sake of being derogatory, the point is that as a person your age, your circumstances, not just socio-economic, are still very open to change, as are your personal views as you get older and for a procedure that is considered irreversible and has equally or more effective risk free alternatives, that is an unnecessary commitment to something not just in the long term if you eventually want a reversal (only time can tell) but even the short-term with a risk of failure and other morbidities. You could argue this is what you really want and you're sure of it until the world ends but another issue is that there are better alternatives when considering this situation impartially. Is there any particular reason why non-surgical methods of contraception aren't suitable for you? Society and the doctors you have seen aren't forcing you to have children, by all means practice effective methods of contraception as the majority of the sexually-active western population do.

I don't even want to address the specific procedure, but this is arrogant as ******** hell.

Who are you to tell anyone, aside from yourself, that they are not mature or forward thinking enough to make decisions that effect their life?

Eleven and twelve year olds can make decisions about their life, and by eighteen society says that you're mature enough to take full responsibility for your actions.

So yes, you can say that you're not trying to be derogatory, but that's like someone who says, "I'm not racist, but <super racist thing>". Just because you say so doesn't mean it's so.

MegaTurkey is hardly being arrogant. This may be rude, but Steam Punk Adept is talking like he wants to do whatever he wants and not have to worry about consequences. Steam could just not have sex to begin with. If he ends up getting a girl pregnant, it'll be because he himself did that, not the doctor. Honestly, suing a doctor because of your actions.

Also, Steam just wants the doctor to do that, SO he could have as much sex as he wants, and that is certainly compulsive. The doctors recognize that, and don't see it a valid reason to sterilize, because compulsive decisions are often the ones you regret most.

Then, if he changes his mind, it'll be too late. The doctors could REALLY be blamed for allowing him to make such a decision.

Congrats, you've made a massive assumption about my reasoning for wanting a vasectomy, and have successfully made yourself look like the biggest a** on Gaia! You should feel proud.

I've been with the same partner for several years now. She is a carrier for Huntington Disease, and watched her own father deteriorate and die from it. I am a carrier for Harlequin Ichthyosis, from both of my parents (it's actually a wonder I wasn't born with it, in which case I'd have died soon after birth). Any child I have will be born with the disease. As for Huntington Disease, there is a 1 in 2 chance any child my partner has will have that.

Genetic issues aside, I don't want kids period, and I never wanted them. It has nothing to do with wanting sex, and everything to do with not wanting to bring a child into the world only so it can suffer a terrible, horrible disease, and die before it reaches a single year on Earth. THAT more than anything else is why, if my partner gets pregnant (she couldn't bring herself to have an abortion, even at the expense of her own life), I will sue every doctor who denied me a vasectomy for every penny I can pinch.

Go ahead and tell me again how selfish I am for not wanting children, you arrogant p***k. And I'm not about to give up the bonding experience that is sex simply because you get your jimmies in a twist about abortion. Sex is about more than making babies you ignorant ********. Do the world a favor, next time you want to assume anything about anyone without knowing the details, kindly go ******** yourself in the a** with a searing hot metal poker.

I didn't know all that, and I apologize for assuming and I'm sorry for your wife's condition.

But I don't know why my point is invalid. It is still an elective situation. You're reason for not wanting to have children with her is a good one. It isn't selfish at all to not want to have children, and I'd be a hypocrite for saying otherwise because I'm living my life out in chastity. But chastity/abstinence is the best and cheapest method of avoiding pregnancy.
I realize sex has other functions for a married couple, including a powerful bonding experience, but there are many many other ways to bond. Instead of spending all that money on a vasectomy after being turned down so many times, why not spend that money on dates and travel? Make some memories other than in the bedroom, y'know?

Again, I'm sorry for assuming. Your language was vague before now, so I didn't know any of this.

[AliKat1988]

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

It probably doesn't destroy their argument, as pro-lifers usually retain more of a focus on existence of life rather than quality of life. When one takes the former to be axiomatically good, and the latter to be comparably superfluous, it isn't so easy to treat as you suggest.

I said it destroys the argument in regards to this specific form of argument. It doesn't destroy the claim about the value of life as inherently good, just breaks apart the manipulative claim that if given the option the fetus would favor living. They can use other arguments instead which are more subjective, but not so easy to dismiss with facts-like saying life is valuable in itself.

I would think that most people would see it clearly that most people would consider it good that they are currently alive rather than aborted.

Have you ignored the case of my friend who was put up for adoption had abusive adoptive parents and thinks abortion would have been the better choice for her mother? Doesn't the claim "most" ignore how abortion is only a small portion of pregnancies and usually there are exacerbating circumstances that make abortion preferable?

Yes, I ignored the case of your friend.

"A better choice for her mother", implies that having a child aborted would have been better for the mother than having a child and then giving it up for adoption.
If it would have been "preferable", that is the same as saying "I would rather not have lived than lived as I have". She maintains this, this friend of yours?

Yes she even says she is pro-abortion not just pro-choice because she knows how horrible the adoption system can screw up

[Fermionic]

AliKat1988

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

AliKat1988

Fermionic

It probably doesn't destroy their argument, as pro-lifers usually retain more of a focus on existence of life rather than quality of life. When one takes the former to be axiomatically good, and the latter to be comparably superfluous, it isn't so easy to treat as you suggest.

I said it destroys the argument in regards to this specific form of argument. It doesn't destroy the claim about the value of life as inherently good, just breaks apart the manipulative claim that if given the option the fetus would favor living. They can use other arguments instead which are more subjective, but not so easy to dismiss with facts-like saying life is valuable in itself.

I would think that most people would see it clearly that most people would consider it good that they are currently alive rather than aborted.

Have you ignored the case of my friend who was put up for adoption had abusive adoptive parents and thinks abortion would have been the better choice for her mother? Doesn't the claim "most" ignore how abortion is only a small portion of pregnancies and usually there are exacerbating circumstances that make abortion preferable?

Yes, I ignored the case of your friend.

"A better choice for her mother", implies that having a child aborted would have been better for the mother than having a child and then giving it up for adoption.
If it would have been "preferable", that is the same as saying "I would rather not have lived than lived as I have". She maintains this, this friend of yours?

Yes she even says she is pro-abortion not just pro-choice because she knows how horrible the adoption system can screw up

I would call this an impasse, seeing as we've neither the capabilities to discern whether it is a sensationalist description of her attitude towards her own life to make a point of the faults in her upbringing, or whether she has a genuine wish to never have been born.
In addition, the example can probably be dismissed as anecdotal in any case.

For my part, I am pleased that I was adopted, as opposed to having been aborted.

[Steam Punk Adept]

Blue Beastie

I didn't know all that, and I apologize for assuming and I'm sorry for your wife's condition.

But I don't know why my point is invalid. It is still an elective situation. You're reason for not wanting to have children with her is a good one. It isn't selfish at all to not want to have children, and I'd be a hypocrite for saying otherwise because I'm living my life out in chastity. But chastity/abstinence is the best and cheapest method of avoiding pregnancy.
I realize sex has other functions for a married couple, including a powerful bonding experience, but there are many many other ways to bond. Instead of spending all that money on a vasectomy after being turned down so many times, why not spend that money on dates and travel? Make some memories other than in the bedroom, y'know?

Again, I'm sorry for assuming. Your language was vague before now, so I didn't know any of this.

Apology accepted.
Two things
1: Not married, just in a steady, long term relationship. She doesn't believe in marriage, especially after seeing nearly everyone she knows who has been married get divorced (except her parents, who were together till her father passed). Marriage isn't for everyone.

2: I haven't spent a dime on a vasectomy yet, and a consultation visit is fairly inexpensive. We do go out, have dates, and travel, but that is irrelevant to this issue. If she ever does get pregnant though, I still, fully intend to sue every doctor who has denied me for negligence, especially since any child will almost assuredly suffer from a fatal genetic condition.

[Blue Beastie]

Steam Punk Adept

Blue Beastie

I didn't know all that, and I apologize for assuming and I'm sorry for your wife's condition.

But I don't know why my point is invalid. It is still an elective situation. You're reason for not wanting to have children with her is a good one. It isn't selfish at all to not want to have children, and I'd be a hypocrite for saying otherwise because I'm living my life out in chastity. But chastity/abstinence is the best and cheapest method of avoiding pregnancy.
I realize sex has other functions for a married couple, including a powerful bonding experience, but there are many many other ways to bond. Instead of spending all that money on a vasectomy after being turned down so many times, why not spend that money on dates and travel? Make some memories other than in the bedroom, y'know?

Again, I'm sorry for assuming. Your language was vague before now, so I didn't know any of this.

Apology accepted.
Two things
1: Not married, just in a steady, long term relationship. She doesn't believe in marriage, especially after seeing nearly everyone she knows who has been married get divorced (except her parents, who were together till her father passed). Marriage isn't for everyone.

I understand. I feel bad that she has such a rotten image of marriage, it really is supposed to be loving and everlasting. I firmly believe the divorce rate is so high due to societal failings, and I hope you're the one who can change her mind and heart about it. heart

Quote:

2: I haven't spent a dime on a vasectomy yet, and a consultation visit is fairly inexpensive. We do go out, have dates, and travel, but that is irrelevant to this issue. If she ever does get pregnant though, I still, fully intend to sue every doctor who has denied me for negligence, especially since any child will almost assuredly suffer from a fatal genetic condition.

I understand the fear of bringing a child who will suffer a disease their whole life into the world. But suing a doctor over it will only reinforce to yourself and your child that they weren't wanted by you, and their birth is something to be despised, not celebrated. I hope you consider that, if it happens, even the most crippled person can be entirely happy.

Having said that, have you heard about "Natural family planning"? You can prevent (or bring about) pregnancy by paying attention to the cycles, and I think you might be interested since you don't completely trust things like condoms. I've only heard of it from the Catholic Church, but apparently it's a proven method from since man started building his own caves. x3

[Daecron]

If you abort button your baby you should have to eat it.