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Lacarnum Inflamaurae
im a pro-life but i wanted to hear the stand of opposing groups as well.
Listen to this : ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFXQ8oFulRA

First things first; I am not responding to this propaganda.
Every action has a potential consequence.
Sexual intercourse has the potential consequence of pregnancy.
Pregnancy comes with the potential consequence of parenthood. It also comes with the potential consequence of surgery or medication to induce miscarriage. If you can not accept either, make a personal decision to not have sex. Don't judge others for their decision; the alternate consequence could be devastating.
Jaaten Syric's avatar

Liberal Zealot

Nightshade Flowers


I'm not being lazy, I'm being truthful. This whole debate is a bunch of people screaming at each other that "It's murder!" "It's a right!" "Baby killer!" "Fascist!". If your opinion changed it's not because someone said you were a baby killer or a woman-hater, it's because you, as a person, have changed.


Yes, and? What, exactly, do you think the catalyst for that change was? It was arguing with people. It was getting my a** handed to me and having my ignorance thrown in my face for all to see. Like I said, don't confuse the rarity of converts with their absence.

Quote:
The argument is always going to be the same. The same sides, the same reasoning, the same stupid argument over and over. There's no reason for anyone to even talk about it anymore. It's such a hot issue that it's almost a non-issue. As in, it's never going to end so why-freaking-bother?


Except that it can, has, and will continue to work. The only way to guarantee the status quo is, weirdly enough, exactly what you advocate.
People are gonna say 'Its my right to choose if I want to have an abortion' and that nobody can stop them. Does that mean that they will do it if the time comes up, no. I personally think that if my girlfriend got pregnant, I'd plead with her to keep it, because I will always have that 'What If' in my head, and I might hate myself. But that would just be between me and her, and if a random stranger at the abortion clinic starts yelling at her about murder, I'll yell right back at em that its none of their business. The only people that should be involved with it is the mother, and father, and the mother's parents(if underage).

But really as I said before, people will always get involved with it, Religious Crazies, and the people who think its their right to choose. I say, that people need to leave it alone, and just stay out of it. If the couple is having an hard time discussing it, they don't need other people getting involved.

But there is one thing I want to get an opinion on, should the father have any word on it, I mean it is his kid right?
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liljeholm
this rainbow lover
liljeholm
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
Abortion is just immoral. People should learn to control themselves and the best way is to take away their chances from escaping these circumstances by the use of such methods which kills life. I recommend to use family planning.
I think the same. Nowadays we have several ways not to get pregnant, condoms, pills- and i dont think that people should sacrifice other people's life because of their own mistake.


What if condoms fail? What if you're using both birth control and condoms and you still get pregnant, but you are an engaged couple in college, struggling to pay for food each month? Would you still believe that the women should keep the fetus? Knowing she wouldn't be able to afford taking care of this child when it was born?

What if I need an abortion for medical reasons? What if I survive a rape and end up pregnant?

You can't assume that ALL abortion circumstances are the same or even similar, because they're not.
The Goverment still offers you plans to help you out. So that makes your argument pointless.

I would like to imagine you as fetus, would have loved if your mum did it, huh?

...What? What government are you talking about? Because I don't think the US government has any plans to help out pregnant people. I can't speak for other countries, though. Can you explain what you're referring to?

I did not have thoughts or feelings or any sort of conscious being at that point, so I can't say how I would feel. But, she didn't, so... it doesn't matter.
dolly milk's avatar

Shy Fairy

Nitroxwolf
But there is one thing I want to get an opinion on, should the father have any word on it, I mean it is his kid right?


Just because the child consists of his DNA is irrelevant and is a pathetic excuse to contemplate for his own selfishness. Let's compare the effort put forth into incubating a child in the womb:

A woman has to endure 9 months of nausea, vomiting, fatigue, migraines, weight gain, stretch marks, aches and pains, and all the other wide varieties of symptoms that come with pregnancy. And not to mention the extreme agony of labor and having your v****a painfully ripped apart by a giant, screaming mass of flesh.

A man gets 30 minutes of sexual pleasure, ejaculates, and then simply waits.

Even if the child is born, who's to say the couple will stay together at all? Why force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy and use her as your own personal broodmare, instead of just waiting until you're married and with somebody who is willing to birth your child? Why is it so important to you that the child looks like that particular woman? It makes no sense, and it makes you seem very desperate and primitive.

dolly milk
Nitroxwolf
But there is one thing I want to get an opinion on, should the father have any word on it, I mean it is his kid right?


Just because the child consists of his DNA is irrelevant and is a pathetic excuse to contemplate for his own selfishness. Let's compare the effort put forth into incubating a child in the womb:

A woman has to endure 9 months of nausea, vomiting, fatigue, migraines, weight gain, stretch marks, aches and pains, and all the other wide varieties of symptoms that come with pregnancy. And not to mention the extreme agony of labor and having your v****a painfully ripped apart by a giant, screaming mass of flesh.

A man gets 30 minutes of sexual pleasure, ejaculates, and then simply waits.

Even if the child is born, who's to say the couple will stay together at all? Why force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy and use her as your own personal broodmare, instead of just waiting until you're married and with somebody who is willing to birth your child? Why is it so important to you that the child looks like that particular woman? It makes no sense, and it makes you seem very desperate and primitive.


I disagree in part to what you're saying. Theres a personal factor that becomes involved if it would be dealing with you're own flesh and blood. Well what you're saying is a double edged sword. I mean which would you rather deal with, 9 month's of pain, and and a birthing process, or a faulty abortion where something could go wrong, and you would never be able to conceive a child again. Plus there would be the emotional torment of knowing that it was you're choice not to give something a chance at life. Lets not forget the social status incase it ever got out that you had an abortion. People's opinion of you would change, and you may not ever be looked the same way at again.

and the way you're looking at this is completely one sided. The man wouldn't be using her just to breed, it would've been an accidental thing, and if you're saying that the man doesn't have an opinion at it the life of his on child, that itself is a selfish thing. Plus you're just making it sound like the man just had sex with the woman to conceive a child with her looks just for that, it is much more complicated than that, and allot more things could contribute to having sex with someone. Their personal feelings for them, alcohol, anything really.

The fact that you think men only have sex with women to produce the best kids they possibly thing is completely wrong, for that is to be considered, they could've been in love at the time.
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this rainbow lover
liljeholm
this rainbow lover
liljeholm
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
Abortion is just immoral. People should learn to control themselves and the best way is to take away their chances from escaping these circumstances by the use of such methods which kills life. I recommend to use family planning.
I think the same. Nowadays we have several ways not to get pregnant, condoms, pills- and i dont think that people should sacrifice other people's life because of their own mistake.


What if condoms fail? What if you're using both birth control and condoms and you still get pregnant, but you are an engaged couple in college, struggling to pay for food each month? Would you still believe that the women should keep the fetus? Knowing she wouldn't be able to afford taking care of this child when it was born?

What if I need an abortion for medical reasons? What if I survive a rape and end up pregnant?

You can't assume that ALL abortion circumstances are the same or even similar, because they're not.
The Goverment still offers you plans to help you out. So that makes your argument pointless.

I would like to imagine you as fetus, would have loved if your mum did it, huh?

...What? What government are you talking about? Because I don't think the US government has any plans to help out pregnant people. I can't speak for other countries, though. Can you explain what you're referring to?

I did not have thoughts or feelings or any sort of conscious being at that point, so I can't say how I would feel. But, she didn't, so... it doesn't matter.


In my state you cant even qualify for health insurance unless you are a student or have a dependent. Once you get on health insurance and find work, you get transitional health insurance for up to one year. I'm sure it varies from state to state but AZ takes care of pregnant people. The US government also has a program called WIC. If you haven't heard of it, they help women and children with food and helps breastfeeding mothers with pumping for work and school. There are myriad options and resources, city, state, and country-wide that can help out.
dolly milk's avatar

Shy Fairy

Nitroxwolf
I disagree in part to what you're saying. Theres a personal factor that becomes involved if it would be dealing with you're own flesh and blood. Well what you're saying is a double edged sword. I mean which would you rather deal with, 9 month's of pain, and and a birthing process, or a faulty abortion where something could go wrong, and you would never be able to conceive a child again. Plus there would be the emotional torment of knowing that it was you're choice not to give something a chance at life. Lets not forget the social status incase it ever got out that you had an abortion. People's opinion of you would change, and you may not ever be looked the same way at again.

That's their own problem, and is irrelevant to our current argument. Whether or not they want to abort or continue a pregnancy has nothing to do with the father having a say in it. Try not to go off topic.


Nitroxwolf
and the way you're looking at this is completely one sided. The man wouldn't be using her just to breed, it would've been an accidental thing, and if you're saying that the man doesn't have an opinion at it the life of his on child, that itself is a selfish thing. Plus you're just making it sound like the man just had sex with the woman to conceive a child with her looks just for that, it is much more complicated than that, and allot more things could contribute to having sex with someone. Their personal feelings for them, alcohol, anything really.

You're failing to comprehend what I just said. When you force her into an unwanted pregnancy just because the child has your DNA, then it becomes you only using her for your own breeding purposes. Let me repeat myself again: the two of you may or may not stay together, so that already defeats the purpose of "wanting a family" with that person, especially if they don't want to continue the pregnancy. I'm assuming a man forcing a woman into an unwanted pregnancy would only cause conflict between the two, thus breaking the union of a proper family. What would you rather do, wait until you're with somebody who is consenting to having a family with you, or forcing somebody into giving birth to your child when they don't want a family with you? Then it would only be the man who is in custody of the child, diminishing the purpose of the pregnancy to simply wanting the child to have her DNA, not wanting to hold a family with her. It's not like you're only capable of impregnating one single person in your entire lifetime.


Nitroxwolf
The fact that you think men only have sex with women to produce the best kids they possibly thing is completely wrong, for that is to be considered, they could've been in love at the time.


If you really loved them, you wouldn't be forcing them into doing things that they don't want to only for your sake. You can try to persuade them into keeping it all you want, but in the end, it is her body and her decision. A petty little DNA is nothing compared to what a woman has to go through during pregnancy and childbirth.
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Nitroxwolf
dolly milk
Nitroxwolf
But there is one thing I want to get an opinion on, should the father have any word on it, I mean it is his kid right?


Just because the child consists of his DNA is irrelevant and is a pathetic excuse to contemplate for his own selfishness. Let's compare the effort put forth into incubating a child in the womb:

A woman has to endure 9 months of nausea, vomiting, fatigue, migraines, weight gain, stretch marks, aches and pains, and all the other wide varieties of symptoms that come with pregnancy. And not to mention the extreme agony of labor and having your v****a painfully ripped apart by a giant, screaming mass of flesh.

A man gets 30 minutes of sexual pleasure, ejaculates, and then simply waits.

Even if the child is born, who's to say the couple will stay together at all? Why force a woman into an unwanted pregnancy and use her as your own personal broodmare, instead of just waiting until you're married and with somebody who is willing to birth your child? Why is it so important to you that the child looks like that particular woman? It makes no sense, and it makes you seem very desperate and primitive.


I disagree in part to what you're saying. Theres a personal factor that becomes involved if it would be dealing with you're own flesh and blood. Well what you're saying is a double edged sword. I mean which would you rather deal with, 9 month's of pain, and and a birthing process, or a faulty abortion where something could go wrong, and you would never be able to conceive a child again. Plus there would be the emotional torment of knowing that it was you're choice not to give something a chance at life. Lets not forget the social status incase it ever got out that you had an abortion. People's opinion of you would change, and you may not ever be looked the same way at again.

and the way you're looking at this is completely one sided. The man wouldn't be using her just to breed, it would've been an accidental thing, and if you're saying that the man doesn't have an opinion at it the life of his on child, that itself is a selfish thing. Plus you're just making it sound like the man just had sex with the woman to conceive a child with her looks just for that, it is much more complicated than that, and allot more things could contribute to having sex with someone. Their personal feelings for them, alcohol, anything really.

The fact that you think men only have sex with women to produce the best kids they possibly thing is completely wrong, for that is to be considered, they could've been in love at the time.


She's a teenager that never leaves the house and is white-knighting feminazis (not to be confused with feminist because only feminazis speak of broodmares and MEN tricking WOMEN into keeping a child.) She has no previous experience in making the choice. It is not nine months of pain, and believe me if a childs head was going to rip up a v****a, chances are they would have a C-section. I also don't think she's aware of how awesome epidurals are. They take away ALL feeling from the lower torso down.

Even married couples get divorce, dollymilk. And then there is the process of custody.
dolly milk's avatar

Shy Fairy

Phallic Wonderland
She's a teenager that never leaves the house and is white-knighting feminazis (not to be confused with feminist because only feminazis speak of broodmares and MEN tricking WOMEN into keeping a child.) She has no previous experience in making the choice. It is not nine months of pain, and believe me if a childs head was going to rip up a v****a, chances are they would have a C-section. I also don't think she's aware of how awesome epidurals are. They take away ALL feeling from the lower torso down.

Even married couples get divorce, dollymilk. And then there is the process of custody.


And here we go again with even more if your selfish bullshit thinking that every single person's pregnancy is some sort of walk in the park that goes exactly the same as yours did. You are not the only person on this earth, so quit acting like it.

The problem here is whether or not they are consenting to starting a family, not if they'll stay together as a couple. Learn to read.

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dolly milk
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She's a teenager that never leaves the house and is white-knighting feminazis (not to be confused with feminist because only feminazis speak of broodmares and MEN tricking WOMEN into keeping a child.) She has no previous experience in making the choice. It is not nine months of pain, and believe me if a childs head was going to rip up a v****a, chances are they would have a C-section. I also don't think she's aware of how awesome epidurals are. They take away ALL feeling from the lower torso down.

Even married couples get divorce, dollymilk. And then there is the process of custody.


And here we go again with even more if your selfish bullshit thinking that every single person's pregnancy is some sort of walk in the park that goes exactly the same as yours did. You are not the only person on this earth, so quit acting like it.

The problem here is whether or not they are consenting to starting a family, not if they'll stay together as a couple. Learn to read.



And that consent can be revoked at ANY. TIME. Divorce processes are traumatizing enough for children, much less the parents who love them. If there is an accidental pregnancy, it should be talked about and I'm sure you agree about that. But in an example of conflicting moral compasses, where the woman is morally okay with abortion and the man wants to at least father his child, there should be a little leeway, even if in the end she gives up complete custody to the father. In a stable long-term relationship, this scenario probably wouldn't happen, but there is still a chance. So saying that marriage is going to keep things copacetic is logically inaccurate as divorce happens all the time.

I never said "walk in the park" I'm making you aware of epidurals. You think it's this terrible awful thing when one little p***k in the back makes all the pain and sensation go away.
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Shy Fairy

Phallic Wonderland
And that consent can be revoked at ANY. TIME. Divorce processes are traumatizing enough for children, much less the parents who love them. If there is an accidental pregnancy, it should be talked about and I'm sure you agree about that. But in an example of conflicting moral compasses, where the woman is morally okay with abortion and the man wants to at least father his child, there should be a little leeway, even if in the end she gives up complete custody to the father. In a stable long-term relationship, this scenario probably wouldn't happen, but there is still a chance. So saying that marriage is going to keep things copacetic is logically inaccurate as divorce happens all the time.

I never said "walk in the park" I'm making you aware of epidurals. You think it's this terrible awful thing when one little p***k in the back makes all the pain and sensation go away.


That consent can be revoked at any time during the pregnancy, and when they are still legally capable of aborting a fetus. They might change their mind about staying with that person and uniting as a whole family, but she is still capable of consenting to whether or not she wants to birth the child for him. And that's what my exact argument is; they don't want her to give birth to the child just because they want a child, they do it because they want to either:

a. have a family with that person
b. are desperate to include her DNA is said child, which brings back the topic of using them as broodmares for their own selfish breeding needs.

And like I already said, if they want a family with somebody, it's better to find somebody who is consenting to having a family, rather than just seeking somebody with a specific DNA to satisfy their primal, ape-like urges and forcing them into something that they don't want to do. That specific woman isn't the only one who he will ever be capable of impregnating; there are others, and it's better to have a child with somebody who is consenting to it. They have no reason to force ONE SPECIFIC person into pregnancy if all they want is a child.

It makes all the pain and sensation go away? Oh really now? Then explain to me why almost 99.9% of childbirth scenarios consist of said woman screaming and moaning in agony?

dolly milk
Phallic Wonderland
She's a teenager that never leaves the house and is white-knighting feminazis (not to be confused with feminist because only feminazis speak of broodmares and MEN tricking WOMEN into keeping a child.) She has no previous experience in making the choice. It is not nine months of pain, and believe me if a childs head was going to rip up a v****a, chances are they would have a C-section. I also don't think she's aware of how awesome epidurals are. They take away ALL feeling from the lower torso down.

Even married couples get divorce, dollymilk. And then there is the process of custody.




dolly milk
Nitroxwolf
I disagree in part to what you're saying. Theres a personal factor that becomes involved if it would be dealing with you're own flesh and blood. Well what you're saying is a double edged sword. I mean which would you rather deal with, 9 month's of pain, and and a birthing process, or a faulty abortion where something could go wrong, and you would never be able to conceive a child again. Plus there would be the emotional torment of knowing that it was you're choice not to give something a chance at life. Lets not forget the social status incase it ever got out that you had an abortion. People's opinion of you would change, and you may not ever be looked the same way at again.

That's their own problem, and is irrelevant to our current argument. Whether or not they want to abort or continue a pregnancy has nothing to do with the father having a say in it. Try not to go off topic.


Nitroxwolf
and the way you're looking at this is completely one sided. The man wouldn't be using her just to breed, it would've been an accidental thing, and if you're saying that the man doesn't have an opinion at it the life of his on child, that itself is a selfish thing. Plus you're just making it sound like the man just had sex with the woman to conceive a child with her looks just for that, it is much more complicated than that, and allot more things could contribute to having sex with someone. Their personal feelings for them, alcohol, anything really.

You're failing to comprehend what I just said. When you force her into an unwanted pregnancy just because the child has your DNA, then it becomes you only using her for your own breeding purposes. Let me repeat myself again: the two of you may or may not stay together, so that already defeats the purpose of "wanting a family" with that person, especially if they don't want to continue the pregnancy. I'm assuming a man forcing a woman into an unwanted pregnancy would only cause conflict between the two, thus breaking the union of a proper family. What would you rather do, wait until you're with somebody who is consenting to having a family with you, or forcing somebody into giving birth to your child when they don't want a family with you? Then it would only be the man who is in custody of the child, diminishing the purpose of the pregnancy to simply wanting the child to have her DNA, not wanting to hold a family with her. It's not like you're only capable of impregnating one single person in your entire lifetime.


Nitroxwolf
The fact that you think men only have sex with women to produce the best kids they possibly thing is completely wrong, for that is to be considered, they could've been in love at the time.


If you really loved them, you wouldn't be forcing them into doing things that they don't want to only for your sake. You can try to persuade them into keeping it all you want, but in the end, it is her body and her decision. A petty little DNA is nothing compared to what a woman has to go through during pregnancy and childbirth.

Yes it is her body, and her decision, but it also the life of someone else, and his child also, is it so bad that the man wants to give his own son/daughter a chance of life? I'm just saying that it gets personal when its your child. Plus its not selfish to want to give something a chance of life, and if that man wants to raise it, using his own money, and time. I say let him. And if that person wants to be selfish, and care only for their body, well they have some maturing to do.


Most men are not that shallow as to get a woman pregnant just for her dna. Plus we're talking about accidental conception, the way you're talking it seems that you think men poke holes in condoms just to get a woman pregnant.
dolly milk's avatar

Shy Fairy

Nitroxwolf
Yes it is her body, and her decision, but it also the life of someone else, and his child also, is it so bad that the man wants to give his own son/daughter a chance of life? I'm just saying that it gets personal when its your child. Plus its not selfish to want to give something a chance of life, and if that man wants to raise it, using his own money, and time. I say let him. And if that person wants to be selfish, and care only for their body, well they have some maturing to do.


And I'll repeat myself again, if he wants a child so badly, then he can find somebody who is willing to consent to birthing his child, not forcing somebody who is unwilling. If there was some magical way to transplant a fetus out of a woman's womb and into the man's body for him to incubate himself, then this wouldn't be problem, but unfortunately we do not have that kind of technology. You are not obligated to forcing a woman into using her body as your own personal incubator your own selfish desires. You are just as selfish as anyone else, your only argument in this matter is "me me me, I I I, want want want", you don't take her body and what kind of complications she has to go through into consideration whatsoever. You think that pregnancy is just some sort of walk in the park for the woman when it isn't, you are not and never will be in her shoes, so quit acting like you're entitled just because it partially consists of your DNA. There are billions of women on this earth, she is not the only one you will ever get the chance to impregnate.

If two people work the same job, and one works harder and puts more effort into their job than the other, is it reasonable that the one who worked harder gets a higher amount of pay? Or are they both obligated to equal pay just because they work the same job, despite one having done less work than the other? Logic, buddy.

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