Legalizing prostitution (mature only please)

Are you for or against prostitution

For	49.1%	[ 79 ]
Against	21.1%	[ 34 ]
Neutral	27.3%	[ 44 ]
undiciede	2.5%	[ 4 ]
Total Votes:			[ 161 ]

[Kilickt]

Grungekitty

Kilickt

I am aware that prostitution exists globally, You misunderstand. I meant if it were legalized globally, there could potentially be more options for prostitutes. Including rights.

Legalization of the trade should offer more protection to women who want to do it. And more to those who don't.

I repeat that current legislation should protect prostitutes from coercion and violence. But it doesn't seem to keep the sleaze trade under sufficient control. A woman locked in a brothel can't go to the police. A woman at the mercy of a brutal man who has taken her passport and threatened her family can't go to the police.
I repeat - look at Amsterdam. Legalisation MAY add to the volume of the trade a caste of damaged women who collude with their abusers. But threats and trafficking and drug addiction are still used to fill the brothels. Legalisation makes it much harder to get anything done about that. Because the law now can't just arrest pimps for living off women - they have to get credible testimony in court from abused, scared, junkie teenagers - against the people who have spent months 'breaking' them to the 'trade'. The easiest bit of the crime to target is the sale of these abused girls. When you legalise that end-user transaction, you make it harder to prove any of the crimes behind it.

Kilickt

It is my thought that the act should be viewed as honest and not immoral - that the women and men are respected - that you would be ******** willing men or women who want your money. Illegal prostitution and abuse is not my concern in this discussion - only that people should have the right to sell sexual acts.

I suggest that you go found a utopian community somewhere and create a society very different from the one in which we live.
Because, in this society, prostitution is about using money as power - paying for the simulation of an intimate act. If all the punters were buying was friction to satisfy animal instinct, this could easily be provided by a vending machine.
Prostitution is about the abuse of young women. Maybe not in Imaginaria. But in the real world.
I'm not expounding an abstract philosophical position here - I'm talking about legislation in the real world, attempting to minimise a pathological behaviour - a form of violence against women.

Kilickt

Obviously, to be quite frank with you, I don't give a damn about what happens in the next generation of people. Especially not in this topic.

I assume then, that you think the above statement bolsters some sort of hedonistic argument?
And by extension of this 'argument', you don't give a monkey's curse about global warming.
That the spiralling national debt doesn't worry you much - and will worry you less as you age.
And perhaps, extrapolating from your statement, that you would hope to die with your credit cards all maxx'd out?

This is a digression, but I'll point out that saying you don't care about future effects of your actions will not encourage your credit providers to increase your cards' limits. And similarly, it won't encourage anyone to enter into an agreement with you, or to aid or support your causes. Because its a sociopathic statement.

Men are also prostitutes, not just women.

I am mainly talking about hypothetical situations, if you haven't noticed. I am not arguing that women aren't getting abused in the act of prostitution - I am just standing by the fact that we should have more freedom over our own bodies. We have similar views really, except I think I am more optimistic that we could have freedom and be able to eventually have a safe, legalized prostitution system.

If it were legalized, it should be legalized globally. As I have said in another post, it would have to be controlled. I am not saying in it's current state, where women and men are trafficked and abused, that it should be legalized that way. The mechanics of how it would work would have to be much, much different. Obviously.

I am disregarding your last paragraph. There is no need to insult, but thank you for the kind compliments ;D

[Great Scoot]

Grungekitty

Kyoki Kitsune

Prostitution could be a great thing if it were controlled. Tests done on prostitutes and on customers, waivers signed before sessions, specifications, licensing, etc.

If it were in a controlled environment, it could do some good.

See the previous pages of this thread and the example of Amsterdam.

Amsterdam is as good as it gets and it's still horrible and unacceptable.

Why not legalise bank robbery?
If you had to get a permit, pass a shooting test and show that you weren't going to panic and gun down hostages while people were still negotiating, well bank robberies would be tidier and more profitable.

But the core concept of bank robbery is ROBBERY.

And the core concept of prostitution is to perform a sex act upon the body of somebody who doesn't WANT to do it.

Now, you could say that similarly, getting served by a waiter is inducing somebody to serve you food when they have no natural inclination to serve you. But somehow, though the catering trade is low skilled and low paid, we find that waiters don't have pimps and there is no specialist market in under age silver service waiters with no experience.

Clearly, there is something different about the sex trade - and maybe things are different among the Martians or the tribes of the Amazon basin. Maybe your concepts could be made valid in a society completely different from ours. But, the Amsterdam situation shows us that in Western 'civilisation', prostitution is inescapably linked with abuse of women.

Hence why I said it would be a controlled job. The job wouldn't mean that people would be treated like s**t by their managers for doing it. No pimps or whatever, rights as workers, all that s**t. They'd get as many rights as any waiter would. Waiters can sue for their manager hitting them, so would a prostitute be able to do so. Get away from the whole "human trafficking" and illegal part of it for a moment. Imagine that it's like walking into a normal establishment for something that you're looking for. In this case, it's sex. You pay, choose your companion, and go for it. It'd be no more looked down upon than stripping.

[Grungekitty]

Kilickt

Men are also prostitutes, not just women.

This is a statement from the large class of things which are true, in an absolute sense, but sufficiently uncommon to ignore in most situations.

For example, it is true that the pollen of some flowers is very poisonous. However, when pulling weeds, we do not generally kit ourselves out in NBC suits because (a) we're not gong to encounter those plants and (b) we tend not to accidentally lick up pollen in the garden.

It is true that boys and young men are also victims of the prostitution racketeers. But when I say that prostitution is largely about the abuse of girls and young women (a) I'm not wrong and (b) boys found in brothels or being sold on the streets are also generally junkies and / or coerced / damaged by an abusive background, so I don't see that bringing up the point helps your argument.

Kilickt

I am mainly talking about hypothetical situations, if you haven't noticed. I am not arguing that women aren't getting abused in the act of prostitution - I am just standing by the fact that we should have more freedom over our own bodies.

Here we hit the nub of our differences. Because I don't think that we should be making Firefly a basis for legislation. We don't live in a hypothetical world, but in the actual world. And therefore, when you are arguing for 'more freedom ... over our own bodies' in a fictional context, you are arguing for policies that lead to lots of girls being enslaved in reality.

Kilickt

We have similar views really, except I think I am more optimistic that we could have freedom and be able to eventually have a safe, legalized prostitution system.

No we don't have similar views. We both see freedom as a good thing - which suggests that we both have basic fluency in the English language. But my beliefs and debating interests are rooted in the physical world. I argue using mental tools - but about the actual world.
As for you, you are 'mainly talking about hypothetical situations' which I view as an unrelated activity.

Kilickt

If it were legalized, it should be legalized globally. As I have said in another post, it would have to be controlled. I am not saying in it's current state, where women and men are trafficked and abused, that it should be legalized that way. The mechanics of how it would work would have to be much, much different. Obviously.

So, in fact, your views of prostitution are focussed on a time after we have a world government?

Kilickt

I am disregarding your last paragraph.

I am not dropping your statement that you don't care about future generations. Particularly since you want to talk about future, hypothetical states. I'll do you the credit of thinking you phrased your statement badly: but, as it stands, it is a bad statement and an untenable viewpoint for any non-solipsistic argument.

[Grungekitty]

Kyoki Kitsune

Hence why I said it would be a controlled job. The job wouldn't mean that people would be treated like s**t by their managers for doing it. No pimps or whatever, rights as workers, all that s**t. They'd get as many rights as any waiter would.

Why do you say 'would be'? Because I'm talking about the current situation in Amsterdam. And there,

Kyoki Kitsune

Waiters can sue for their manager hitting them, so would a prostitute be able to do so.

That's already true, even in places where prostitution is completely illegal - and in Amsterdam, prostitutes SHOULD be able to go to a union - let alone the police and get their pimps arrested.
But somehow, it still seems to be an abusive trade, smuggling in girls, using them and discarding the debris. Why do you think that prostitution is run by pimps and the tulip markets of Amsterdam are not ?

Kyoki Kitsune

Get away from the whole "human trafficking" and illegal part of it for a moment.

Well, we did: that's why we're talking about Amsterdam, where it was legalised. But sadly, the human trafficking thing hasn't gone away.

Kyoki Kitsune

Imagine that it's like walking into a normal establishment for something that you're looking for. In this case, it's sex. You pay, choose your companion, and go for it. It'd be no more looked down upon than stripping.

May I ask you to imagine walking into a normal establishment for something that you're looking for. In this case, it's human flesh. You pay, you choose a cut of 'long pork' - or more likely 'long veal' or 'long lamb'. I argue that we should not attempt to remove the stigma from trafficking in abuse: because that's what it is. Because we're not talking about Firefly.

[Kilickt]

Grungekitty

I don't see that bringing up the point helps your argument.

Actually it had no point in my argument at all, I felt like bringing it up since you keep saying prostitution abuses women. It also includes men. But you're already aware of that, so I'm glad we're on the same page :3 I just figured since there has been a lot of unnecessary things said I could jump on the bandwagon.

[Grungekitty]

Kilickt

Again, you are simply misunderstanding me quite violently. I apologize that you take such offense to what I say. But tell me - if prostitution were legalized globally, or in say America, what do you think the result would be?

The same result as we see now, when it has been legalized in Amsterdam - that men will pay money to pimps in order to perform sexual acts upon unwilling, trafficked and abused girls. Because being used as an object of sexual gratification by socially disfunctional men is not enjoyable. Being abused is not, generally, a career choice that appeals to the undamaged.

I am aware that you have a romantic view that fictional 'companions' could provide a highly skilled and highly prized artistic performance or even a therapeutic service. But it's fiction. And nothing to do with legalising prostitution as prostitutes are used today.

Legalising prostitution because of a character in Firefly, is like saying that we should be handing out fissionable materials on street corners. After all, Marty McFly will never be able to get Back To The Future without his Fusion Generator - and we know that Fusion is the next step after Fission. Let's not talk about dirty bombs and the ill effects of radiation poisoning - let's just talk about a fictional wonderland, where every one is happy all the time and there is no coercion.

Kilickt

Replace buy with own. You should be buying sexual acts - you should not actually be buying them.

Well, the brothel keepers are buying girls, and the girls are traded as commodities. They depreciate over time, in much the same way as hire cars. Again, you're saying 'should' as if the world was a novel you were writing. The world does not alter in accordance with your preferences.

Kilickt

And you are bringing up something that only effects apparently 25% of the population of legal prostitutes - what MAY be a problem in the future. Supposing that we don't do it better than Amsterdam. Which is just as annoying as my hypothetical statements.

If 25% of the prostitutes in fully developed, low corruption Amsterdam turn out to be enslaved victims, smuggled in from abroad, then this does not mean that the other 75% are all Firefly fans doing cosplay. Do some reading. Check out the percentages from some of the literature I linked to above. How many of them started out under the age of 16? How many are drug addicts? How many came from abusive backgrounds - and in their turn will bear children, who will grow up to be abused ?

We're talking about Amsterdam, because it is a first world, civilised city in which legalisation of prostitution has been tried - and has failed to make it a civilised occupation. I repeat : one in four are slaves.

Do you have any fact at all to suggest that 'we' could do better than Amsterdam - for any given value of 'we'?

Grungekitty

I am not dropping your statement that you don't care about future generations. Particularly since you want to talk about future, hypothetical states. I'll do you the credit of thinking you phrased your statement badly: but, as it stands, it is a bad statement and an untenable viewpoint for any non-solipsistic argument.

Kilickt

Fair enough. But my reasoning for not caring about the future generations is not of the concern in this debate. Concern of yours, maybe. But not mine.

Well, it is part of this debate - because you brought it up.
And it's part of this debate because your proposal that prostitution should be legalised and legalised globally relates to the future. ( All plans for change affect the future, unless you're talking about the censorship of history books). Therefore a statement that you don't care about the future is foolish. A statement that you don't care about other people, if we believe it, makes you not worth talking to. Why should we care about your opinions and your interests if you don't care about ours ? There is no basis for dialogue.

[Kilickt]

Grungekitty

Well, that is why the system of prostitution would have to be changed if it were to be legalized.
am aware that you have a romantic view that fictional 'companions' could provide a highly skilled and highly prized artistic performance or even a therapeutic service. But it's fiction. And nothing to do with legalizing prostitution as prostitutes are used today.

The companions in firefly are ideal and I think we should strive to make prostitution like it. In actuality, I don't ever expect it to happen. Much like the legalization of prostitution today.

Grungekitty

The same result as we see now, when it has been legalized in Amsterdam - that men will pay money to pimps in order to perform sexual acts upon unwilling, trafficked and abused girls. Because being used as an object of sexual gratification by socially disfunctional men is not enjoyable. Being abused is not, generally, a career choice that appeals to the undamaged.

I agree that if it were run the same way as in Amsterdam, we would have those problems.

Yet, I believe the many problems that stand in the face of legal prostitution could be fixed through proper care. I don't think my theory is that outlandish. That you could create government-run or certified brothels with a lot more paperwork involved to protect the woman/man and with more rights given to said prostitutes. I also think we should abolish pimps and give prostitutes a different name.

[veren enkeli]

I am for it. It would be a cleaner business and crime rates would be driven down.

[Jaishirri]

I personally say, we should legalize prostitution. I also believe that it could be a regulated industry, like the porn industry.

This would lead to healthier prostitues (less STIs, etc), safer work environments for prostitutes and their customers, and regulated cost/ paychecks.

[I got bored one day]

Yet all the same there's no information or indication any of what people are saying is true on a scale large enough to matter. It makes trafficking easier even.

[en-pointe off-balance]

I'm against because it contributes to the spread of STI's and STD's. Also, the many other crimes that tend to be associated with prostitution; distribution of illegal drugs, violence, murder, etc.

And the customers are often men with families who go to prostitutes as well as or in place of having an affair - undermining the sanctity of marriage and adultery and all that.

Personally, I don't see why one even needs to consider legalizing something that has so many negative implications and almost no positive effects, that I can think of. Legalizing or institutionalizing it would not magically make it a safe and healthy industry, as people tend to assume. If current "managers" of prostitutes do not concern themselves with protecting their "employees", and the customers are used to doing business the way things are, under what assumption can you say that legalizing the exchange would make it better for anyone involved?

[Jaishirri]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Yet all the same there's no information or indication any of what people are saying is true on a scale large enough to matter. It makes trafficking easier even.

There will always be trafficking, but if the industry was regulated? Like tobacco or porn, you don't think we could make a difference? Save a women life, prevent the spreaad of an STI?

[I got bored one day]

Jaishirri

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Yet all the same there's no information or indication any of what people are saying is true on a scale large enough to matter. It makes trafficking easier even.

There will always be trafficking, but if the industry was regulated? Like tobacco or porn, you don't think we could make a difference? Save a women life, prevent the spreaad of an STI?

Saving one life is worthless if it gives 10 lives to those of dark intentions. How could convict pimps and abusive partners who force others into such services? You'd have less of a case than you already do, which isn't that much mind you.

[Jaishirri]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Jaishirri

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Yet all the same there's no information or indication any of what people are saying is true on a scale large enough to matter. It makes trafficking easier even.

There will always be trafficking, but if the industry was regulated? Like tobacco or porn, you don't think we could make a difference? Save a women life, prevent the spreaad of an STI?

Saving one life is worthless if it gives 10 lives to those of dark intentions. How could convict pimps and abusive partners who force others into such services? You'd have less of a case than you already do, which isn't that much mind you.

We wouldn't be able to base the system off of something we already know. If it was legalized and regulated (and enforced mind you), there is no reason why we cannot create a better and safer work environment for prostitues.

You could convict pimps and abusive partners with paperwork. There would have to be paper trails, which is the point of regulation. You would get rid of "pimps"/ they would be unable to acquire a lisence. You'd give prostitutes a voice.