JOE the PLUMBER

Joe the Plumber

Great move for McCain.	13.8%	[ 22 ]
Desperate move for McCain.	86.2%	[ 137 ]
Total Votes:			[ 159 ]

[Laharl OutPhase]

Nonesuch Solo

You miss my ******** point.

What scale is there to measure who "works hard?" My third-grade teacher "worked hard" by calling us names and handing us fill-in-the-blank work and telling my parents "these kids are below average to average and that's all they'll ever be." My fourth-grade teacher "worked hard" by engaging students, staying after school if kids had questions, etc. So how, exactly, should we judge which of them works harder and which of them deserves to earn more money? Presumably, people don't go into teaching to make money, they go into teaching because they hope they'll make a difference.

Yes, at first, but then you see strikes pop up everywhere with the school staff demanding higher wages, since obviously, they aren't getting enough money to get by or are living paycheck to paycheck in the most literal sense. Do you KNOW how ******** little they get paid for educating the people who will be running the world in the decades that are soon to follow?

kitteacakes

I don't know anyone who's barely making ends meet, wealthy or middle class. But stating in such a way that it would seem that all wealthy people spend their money lavishly and live in luxury with no worries is a generalization. One of my best friends' father is a kidney specialist. Their family has 5 kids and they are still living in the same house that they've been in since my friend was 7. They don't have a maid or a nanny. They don't squander their money. They're actually very big into saving it up. So where's the lavish lifestyle there?

Most doctors/Kidney specialists don't get this extravagant income that others may think. Yes, they get enough to get by, but certainly not enough to live the high life.

My father worked in a hospital, and he also had five children. He was the only one working since my mom couldn't go to work on account of her back condition and having five children living in her house. I never really saw him that much as a child, and he worked six days a week, and these were entire shifts, mind you. To make sure there was bread on the table, he had to work for over 60 hours a week, struggling to make ends meet. Hell, he even worked at two different hospitals at the same time.


I don't know where all of this nonsense that doctors sit on a golden chair and wear the finest furs and cloths, but it has to stop. Sure, $90K sounds pretty sweet, but once you take into account taxes, insurance, gasoline, food, bills, etc., you barely have s**t to save for when you're retired. NOBODY should have to use almost all of the money they make currently just to get by, since when you're too old to work, you're pretty much ********. My parents barely have s**t saved for retirement because they had to use everything they have just to keep a roof over their heads right now, and I am terrified as of how well they will fare off once they are retired.

[Tactical Leg Sweep]

Quote:

I brought up my fiance's sister, who doesn't work at all. I did mention that "working harder" is the idea of capitalism, which I don't necessarily agree with. HOWEVER, I also don't think that teachers always "work harder" than CEOs. You're the one implying firefighters and police officers and paramedics and teachers and construction workers and nurses work harder than people richer than them.

"Why should they be forced to spend it on people who don't work as hard?"
You were the one that stated anything about working hard. You stated that the upper class works harder than lower classes. I mentioned those professions to make a point, and to ask if you believed a CEO worked harder than they do.

Quote:

So I guess the misunderstanding is that "obviously richer people worked harder" is not MY personal belief, just the idea capitalism is based on.

Perhaps.

Quote:

Many people who earn more money DO WORK HARDER than some people who don't earn as much. Like, for example, myself compared to my fiance. He works a lot harder than me, and he earns more money than I do. That's how it should be, right?

Now you're jumping back to the same point. WHO IS to decide who works harder? Personally I think a police officer who goes and puts his life on the line every day works harder than the CEO of McDonalds. But that's my personal opinion. Who are you to say that they work harder? That's based on your opinion.

Quote:

My point is that CEOs don't just sit on their a** all day not doing anything. If someone would rather have a desk job, then go for it.

A) You know it's not that simple. B) My point was that again, who is to say who works harder? You stated you wouldn't want to do the jobs they do because it involves taking risks. I stated that there are probably tons of people who would want to work as a CEO who are working at a job they think is much worse and harder.

Quote:

The hell is your problem buddy?

Firstly, let's get this straight: I am not nor have I ever been part of the upper class. I've never made more than $10k/year, even when I was living in the area with the second highest standard of living in the country. Believe me, it's hard when you can't even afford a shitty one-bedroom apartment while working three jobs, but that doesn't mean that anyone else is obliged to help me by giving me free money.

How the hell is it fair to take a larger percentage of someone's money because they make more money?

Well you certainly had paranoid rant of someone who was upper class. About people trying to steal their money and the big evil government of doom coming to spread their wealth like a bunch of pink commies.

And I said they should pay more relative to their income and that the brunt of the taxes shouldn't have to fall on the middle class.

Quote:

If you want a job that makes more money, you know what you'd need to do. I'm assuming you think that a job as a firefighter would be more rewarding to you personally, because you would enjoy it more, you would feel like you're making a difference, you want to help people in trouble, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said about teaching, I don't think people go into firefighting to make money.

No, they don't. Does that mean that they should have to pay more because they decided to take a job that would pay less? No. It should be a FAIR tax system, not one that rewards people of either sway. The SYSTEM AS IT IS, rewards the upper class. How is that fair?

Quote:

I plan on doing something which is fun for me, something I am good at, something that is hard for many people to wrap their minds around, something which may be a desk job but is more challenging for me than working retail, and something which will help me keep afloat financially. I'll probably wind up making more money than a firefighter after a few years experience. Doesn't mean I'm better than you, it just means I chose a career that in general pays better. So cut this self-righteous bullcrap and realize that I never said I was the judge of "hard work" but that sometimes there's a reason people get paid more.

The only one being self-righteous here is you. Furthermore, you keep saying that, but the quote up top and the bold text disagrees. The reason is that you ******** chose a profession that pays more. Not that they work harder. So cut the crap.

[Nillia]

I'm delighted at the passion this thread incited but please remain somewhat civil and refrain from cursing.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Laharl OutPhase

Nonesuch Solo

You miss my ******** point.

What scale is there to measure who "works hard?" My third-grade teacher "worked hard" by calling us names and handing us fill-in-the-blank work and telling my parents "these kids are below average to average and that's all they'll ever be." My fourth-grade teacher "worked hard" by engaging students, staying after school if kids had questions, etc. So how, exactly, should we judge which of them works harder and which of them deserves to earn more money? Presumably, people don't go into teaching to make money, they go into teaching because they hope they'll make a difference.

Yes, at first, but then you see strikes pop up everywhere with the school staff demanding higher wages, since obviously, they aren't getting enough money to get by or are living paycheck to paycheck in the most literal sense. Do you KNOW how ******** little they get paid for educating the people who will be running the world in the decades that are soon to follow?

You...have also missed something.

Not all teachers work as hard as other teachers. Even in the same job description with the same pay grade!

And yes, I know. Even people who have their PhDs start off really bad.

[Nonesuch Solo]

I kill giants

Quote:

I brought up my fiance's sister, who doesn't work at all. I did mention that "working harder" is the idea of capitalism, which I don't necessarily agree with. HOWEVER, I also don't think that teachers always "work harder" than CEOs. You're the one implying firefighters and police officers and paramedics and teachers and construction workers and nurses work harder than people richer than them.

"Why should they be forced to spend it on people who don't work as hard?"
You were the one that stated anything about working hard. You stated that the upper class works harder than lower classes. I mentioned those professions to make a point, and to ask if you believed a CEO worked harder than they do.

Nonesuch Solo

THEY earned the money. Why should they be forced to spend it on people who don't work as hard? That's the thought of capitalism.

In context. That's the thought of capitalism. Not the thought of Nonesuch.

I kill giants

Nonesuch Solo

Many people who earn more money DO WORK HARDER than some people who don't earn as much. Like, for example, myself compared to my fiance. He works a lot harder than me, and he earns more money than I do. That's how it should be, right?

Now you're jumping back to the same point. WHO IS to decide who works harder? Personally I think a police officer who goes and puts his life on the line every day works harder than the CEO of McDonalds. But that's my personal opinion. Who are you to say that they work harder? That's based on your opinion.

I think that if you're in a situation, you can tell. I can tell I don't work as hard as him; but in another situation, somebody who has my job description may work harder than someone with my fiance's job description.

I kill giants

Nonesuch Solo

My point is that CEOs don't just sit on their a** all day not doing anything. If someone would rather have a desk job, then go for it.

A) You know it's not that simple. B) My point was that again, who is to say who works harder? You stated you wouldn't want to do the jobs they do because it involves taking risks. I stated that there are probably tons of people who would want to work as a CEO who are working at a job they think is much worse and harder.

There may very well be people who would prefer working as a CEO. It also might be true that they see it as an easy job when it may very well not be quite that simple. If I were a different kind of person, being a CEO would be easy if I could get the job.

I kill giants

Nonesuch Solo]If you want a job that makes more money, you know what you'd need to do. I'm assuming you think that a job as a firefighter would be more rewarding to you personally, because you would enjoy it more, you would feel like you're making a difference, you want to help people in trouble, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said about teaching, I don't think people go into firefighting to make m

vjo4sz14:11="Nonesuch Solo]If you want a job that makes more money, you know what you'd need to do. I'm assuming you think that a job as a firefighter would be more rewarding to you personally, because you would enjoy it more, you would feel like you're making a difference, you want to help people in trouble, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said about teaching, I don't think people go into firefighting to make money.

No, they don't. Does that mean that they should have to pay more because they decided to take a job that would pay less? No. It should be a FAIR tax system, not one that rewards people of either sway. The SYSTEM AS IT IS, rewards the upper class. How is that fair?

So we should take a method that punishes the upper class?

I kill giants

Nonesuch Solo

I plan on doing something which is fun for me, something I am good at, something that is hard for many people to wrap their minds around, something which may be a desk job but is more challenging for me than working retail, and something which will help me keep afloat financially. I'll probably wind up making more money than a firefighter after a few years experience. Doesn't mean I'm better than you, it just means I chose a career that in general pays better. So cut this self-righteous bullcrap and realize that I never said I was the judge of "hard work" but that sometimes there's a reason people get paid more.

The only one being self-righteous here is you. Furthermore, you keep saying that, but the quote up top and the bold text disagrees. The reason is that you ******** chose a profession that pays more. Not that they work harder. So cut the crap.

Wait wait wait wait...I'm saying sometimes there's a reason people get paid more. Do you disagree? The manager who's been with a company for many years and helps organize people to get the work done gets paid more than the new hire who's doing the work and still learning how the product is made. That is one reason some people get paid more than others. Sometimes, the work is harder!

"Sometimes, there's a reason people get paid more" != "I think people who are paid more are always harder workers lolol!"

[Damnati]

McCain is going to be taking poor Joe a couple times more than Obama will be.
So I don't see how talking about Joe would help McCain at all.

McCain should be talking about "Bill the Billionaire" and how much he would benefit.

EDIT: And being a CEO is hard, mentally. You have to be incredibly smart and on top of things to be a good CEO. That's why there are so few of them, relatively. Because so few people are even cut out to do that job effectively. Sure, they have an entire staff waiting on them, but they're the ones who has to tell their staff what to be doing, and when to be doing it.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Damnati

EDIT: And being a CEO is hard, mentally. You have to be incredibly smart and on top of things to be a good CEO. That's why there are so few of them, relatively. Because so few people are even cut out to do that job effectively. Sure, they have an entire staff waiting on them, but they're the ones who has to tell their staff what to be doing, and when to be doing it.

Yea, that's kinda what I was trying to get at. I couldn't do it, even if I think it would be better than being a retail monkey or a caterer or whatever. I am not cut out for it.

I read something somewhere that there are two kinds of work, one is physical (if you are making something, offering services, etc) and the other is mental, all head work. Even if you don't see the CEO going out and pouring concrete foundations, he's still working.

[Laharl OutPhase]

Nonesuch Solo

Not all teachers work as hard as other teachers. Even in the same job description with the same pay grade!

Yep. It's still annoying to know that someone who actually teaches and talks to their classes for the whole time is getting paid the same amount as someone who says "Do pages so-and-so and blah blah blah. When you're done, put your head down", but never explain the material. That's not teaching. That's assigning homework and disguising it as classwork. neutral

[Damnati]

Nonesuch Solo

Damnati

EDIT: And being a CEO is hard, mentally. You have to be incredibly smart and on top of things to be a good CEO. That's why there are so few of them, relatively. Because so few people are even cut out to do that job effectively. Sure, they have an entire staff waiting on them, but they're the ones who has to tell their staff what to be doing, and when to be doing it.

Yea, that's kinda what I was trying to get at. I couldn't do it, even if I think it would be better than being a retail monkey or a caterer or whatever. I am not cut out for it.

I read something somewhere that there are two kinds of work, one is physical (if you are making something, offering services, etc) and the other is mental, all head work. Even if you don't see the CEO going out and pouring concrete foundations, he's still working.

And working damn hard too.

I had to do some of those tasks during a class last year. Was part of a design team, following all the steps, acting an independent design team to produce a quality and marketable product to solve a certain problem. And we had a lot of desk work to do. Scheduling alone is hard. For isntance at one point we were waiting for a week for a quote from one company, and had to rewrite our schedules to accommodate for that. Everything we did had to be recorded and logged, as well as every phone call, e-mail, and meeting, and had to have biweekly reports on our progress.

And in all honesty, that's a lot less than what a CEO has to do, and we had far fewer large decisions to be made. And it was damn hard for us.

And you're right, there is the two types of work. Going into engineering, I know the desk side. But I'm also a country boy, and know the physical side as well. And while they may be radically different, they both can push you to your limits. One isn't any easier than the other, you just have to use different skills.

[BlueCollarJoe]

I kill giants

BlueCollarJoe

I kill giants

kitteacakes

Veggie Sushi

Meet Joe the Plumber

Yeah, it got a little old, but it's true. Pulmbers make a lot of money, and he's planning on buying his buisness.

Quote:

You might want to find out some basic facts before you go spouting off drivel that is a blatant lie next time, okay?

1% of the population has 18% of the wealth, yet pays 39.89% of the tax, the top 50% of the population pays 97% of the tax. The bottom 50% pays less than 3% of the tax.
Care to try again?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/columnists/sburns/stories/DN-burns_04bus.ART.State.Edition1.4603045.html


http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Lets see how your math is. You make 10k a year. You get a tax cut. The government sends you a check for $100.00

Frank makes 1 million a year. The government gives him a tax cut. He gets back a check for $10,000.

You pay your taxes on your 10,000. You pay $1,600.

Frank pays his taxes on his $1,000,000. He pays $390,000.http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/compose/entry/new/44292525/?quote=16

You both got your checks. How much did you pay in taxes percent?
How much did Frank pay?
How much of a rebate did you get?
How much of a rebate did Frank get?

Here's the hardest one. Percentage wise, who's getting screwed?

I know you're pretty much used to people bowing down and not saying anything back when you start spouting off your bullshit. Sorry, I'm not one of them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html

Wanna try again?

Oh and if you want to provide links which are blatantly right leaning to back up your s**t, you won't mind if I post this.

http://www.bear-left.com/original/2003/0522welfare.html

Did you actually read the ******** article or did you just link it and think, since it was the known left site NYT that it supported your view?

Quote:

Families in the middle fifth of annual earnings, who had average incomes of $56,200 in 2004, saw their average effective tax rate edge down to 2.9 percent in 2004 from 5 percent in 2000. That translated to an average tax cut of $1,180 per household, but the tax rate actually increased slightly from 2003.

Tax cuts were much deeper, and affected far more money, for families in the highest income categories. Households in the top 1 percent of earnings, which had an average income of $1.25 million, saw their effective individual tax rates drop to 19.6 percent in 2004 from 24.2 percent in 2000. The rate cut was twice as deep as for middle-income families, and it translated to an average tax cut of almost $58,000.

Note the tax levels? 2.9% for one group and 19.6% for the other? And you chide me for partisan sites and site bearleft? Wow.

The bullshit is you.

[Trip on Acid Rainbows]

Nonesuch Solo

THEY earned the money. Why should they be forced to spend it on people who don't work as hard? That's the thought of capitalism. Even low-income people grumble about being taxed to help support someone living off welfare, or government disability checks. My future sister-in-law gets free money every month, all she has to do is occasionally try to kill herself because her family doesn't give her any additional free money and it'll be obvious she's still mentally ill and needs free government money! Sometimes, you pay money to support folks who give absolutely nothing back to society.

Something that should be acknowledged within Obama's plan:

Most people who have money can manage to get there taxes down pretty far is they have someone good filing them, and seeing as they have money, they probably do know someone who is damn good at filing taxes. if they didn't they probably wouldn't have that money in the first place.

The reality of the situation is someone has to pay and poor people can't afford it, and there will always be people who cheat the system.


Edit:
Regarding Small Businesses, Small buisnesses have many things written off, and after would make less than 250,000 therefore receiving money back in returns

[BlueCollarJoe]

Trip on Acid Rainbows

Nonesuch Solo

THEY earned the money. Why should they be forced to spend it on people who don't work as hard? That's the thought of capitalism. Even low-income people grumble about being taxed to help support someone living off welfare, or government disability checks. My future sister-in-law gets free money every month, all she has to do is occasionally try to kill herself because her family doesn't give her any additional free money and it'll be obvious she's still mentally ill and needs free government money! Sometimes, you pay money to support folks who give absolutely nothing back to society.

Something that should be acknowledged within Obama's plan:

Most people who have money can manage to get there taxes down pretty far is they have someone good filing them, and seeing as they have money, they probably do know someone who is damn good at filing taxes. if they didn't they probably wouldn't have that money in the first place.

The reality of the situation is someone has to pay and poor people can't afford it, and there will always be people who cheat the system.


Edit:
Regarding Small Businesses, Small buisnesses have many things written off, and after would make less than 250,000 therefore receiving money back in returns

Thanks for blaming those that cheat the system and doing the typical envy job of lumping everyone into that catgory, completely ignoring who really pays most of the taxes.

[Radpops]

Woah. Since when are taxes considered punishment?
Maybe if they go towards fixing the problems of Wall Street, certain wars in certain parts of the world that have ambiguous results, etc. Sure, we don't want to know that our money is funding THAT. In certain aspects, that IS a punishment. We can't control those mistakes. At the same time, we can't just say that 3% added on is going to really put those rich people in a monetary rut.

[420 Somewhere]

joe is an awesome name...

[cupcake_massacre]

Sorry to ask I didn't get to watch the debates but what IS McCain's plan for taxing?