Is Gender an Illusion?

[Suicidesoldier#1]

No.

[God Emperor Akhenaton]

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

If it occurs in every single culture for the past 10,000 years, then it's more nature than nurture.

Appeal to tradition is not truth. It does not show it is a matter of biological essentialism at all. There might have been nurture in the last 10,000 years that defined that people understood gender in a particular way.

Then you are just in denial. Also it wasn't just a few cultures, it was every culture and every culture even now views gender based on the crotch. The only people who don't are trannies. Hell even the GLB is still reluctant to support them.

Nurture might occur in all of them. You are making invalid arguments that don't actual prove what they claim to at all.

Whether or not people care about it does not define whether it is true.

I do love how insistent you are about this when the only person who thinks like you do is you.

I'm not the only on who thinks like this. There are quite a number interested in accurately identifying the nature of gender.

That is besides the point though: truth isn't about the number of people who think it is true, it is about whether something is true. What I say would still be accurate even if I was the only one who was saying it. You are committing a base reasoning error: claiming that your argument proves something when it does both of the sort.

Most of whom are trannies. Yet for something as relative as this, you can't just call your point truth. Though there is already a way of identifying gender.

[The rose in spring]

I don't think that gender can vary sex-wise after you are born. But I do think gender can be distinguished in a way of maturity. A male who is a wimp is a male I would not call a man, but I would call him a boy. Same with a crossdresser. They are boys, not men.

[The Willow Of Darkness]

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

Then you are just in denial. Also it wasn't just a few cultures, it was every culture and every culture even now views gender based on the crotch. The only people who don't are trannies. Hell even the GLB is still reluctant to support them.

Nurture might occur in all of them. You are making invalid arguments that don't actual prove what they claim to at all.

Whether or not people care about it does not define whether it is true.

I do love how insistent you are about this when the only person who thinks like you do is you.

I'm not the only on who thinks like this. There are quite a number interested in accurately identifying the nature of gender.

That is besides the point though: truth isn't about the number of people who think it is true, it is about whether something is true. What I say would still be accurate even if I was the only one who was saying it. You are committing a base reasoning error: claiming that your argument proves something when it does both of the sort.

Most of whom are trannies. Yet for something as relative as this, you can't just call your point truth. Though there is already a way of identifying gender.

Which is irrelevant to the matter of truth. Truth is truth, no matter who speaks it.

No, my point is truth. Appeal to majority and appeal to tradition are logical fallacies. The only way that an appeal to majority or tradition can act as a logical justification for something is if you are making an argument that something should be understood as it has been traditionally or the argument that something should be understood the way the majority understand it.

There is never relative truth. Truth is by nature not relative. If something is true, then it is impossible for it to be any other way. You are simply not accurately bracketing what truth is present.

[Rose die Valkyrie]

Good lord, I scored a -30.

I am NOT that feminine.

Yeah, this test is pretty stereotypical and old-fashioned.

Like, why is "Cheerful" considered a feminine trait?

Interesting, but also pointless.

[God Emperor Akhenaton]

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

Then you are just in denial. Also it wasn't just a few cultures, it was every culture and every culture even now views gender based on the crotch. The only people who don't are trannies. Hell even the GLB is still reluctant to support them.

Nurture might occur in all of them. You are making invalid arguments that don't actual prove what they claim to at all.

Whether or not people care about it does not define whether it is true.

I do love how insistent you are about this when the only person who thinks like you do is you.

I'm not the only on who thinks like this. There are quite a number interested in accurately identifying the nature of gender.

That is besides the point though: truth isn't about the number of people who think it is true, it is about whether something is true. What I say would still be accurate even if I was the only one who was saying it. You are committing a base reasoning error: claiming that your argument proves something when it does both of the sort.

Most of whom are trannies. Yet for something as relative as this, you can't just call your point truth. Though there is already a way of identifying gender.

Which is irrelevant to the matter of truth. Truth is truth, no matter who speaks it.

No, my point is truth. Appeal to majority and appeal to tradition are logical fallacies. The only way that an appeal to majority or tradition can act as a logical justification for something is if you are making an argument that something should be understood as it has been traditionally or the argument that something should be understood the way the majority understand it.

There is never relative truth. Truth is by nature not relative. If something is true, then it is impossible for it to be any other way. You are simply not accurately bracketing what truth is present.

Except I don't see how you can back up the notion that it is a truth.

[MissSweet77]

God Emperor Akhenaton

Most of whom are trannies. Yet for something as relative as this, you can't just call your point truth. Though there is already a way of identifying gender.

Wait, what? Where?

Oh my God, if you say genitals, I'll just start sobbing.

[The Willow Of Darkness]

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

The Willow Of Darkness

God Emperor Akhenaton

I do love how insistent you are about this when the only person who thinks like you do is you.

I'm not the only on who thinks like this. There are quite a number interested in accurately identifying the nature of gender.

That is besides the point though: truth isn't about the number of people who think it is true, it is about whether something is true. What I say would still be accurate even if I was the only one who was saying it. You are committing a base reasoning error: claiming that your argument proves something when it does both of the sort.

Most of whom are trannies. Yet for something as relative as this, you can't just call your point truth. Though there is already a way of identifying gender.

Which is irrelevant to the matter of truth. Truth is truth, no matter who speaks it.

No, my point is truth. Appeal to majority and appeal to tradition are logical fallacies. The only way that an appeal to majority or tradition can act as a logical justification for something is if you are making an argument that something should be understood as it has been traditionally or the argument that something should be understood the way the majority understand it.

There is never relative truth. Truth is by nature not relative. If something is true, then it is impossible for it to be any other way. You are simply not accurately bracketing what truth is present.

Except I don't see how you can back up the notion that it is a truth.

It is encoded in the nature of logic. You do not have the evidence for your claim. You claimed gender is an essential result of biology and this was proven by a history and majority of treating it as such. This doesn't match. A majority treating it as such does not show that it is(the Earth wan't flat, even though many people used to think so). Something traditionally being the case doesn't show that it is(there are many traditions that were in place for thousands of years in many places, such as women not owning property, yet this has changed).

As for truth not bering relative, it is a necessary function of logic. If you say it is true I believe X, then X cannot be anything be true if what you say is to be accurate, else it wouldn't be the case that you believed X.

[Cat of Ice]

worse than i seem

Cat of Ice

Captain Verd

Cat of Ice

Gender is your reproductive systems, simple as that.

Ugh no, this is talking about psychological gender, as it's usually used it these sorts of discussions. Physical sex =/= psychological gender. Please keep that in mind so people don't just facepalm at you and s**t.

I know that I'm going to get yelled at for this, but I'm going to post anyway.

Thinking you are a girl does not make you a girl if you have male parts. You can be a male who dresses and acts like a girl, but you are still not a girl.

It's just like if tell myself I am a garden gnome, and convince myself I am, but that does not change the fact I am not physicaly a garden gnome.

That is a horrible comparison.

Also, what would you consider a hermaphrodites?

Nope, pretty accurate actualy.

Hermaprodites are a entirely different situation that is far more complex really.

[Desideraht]

Personally I find those criteria to be sexist. I also don't think gender ITSELF has to do with masculinity/femininity. Like gay men are still men, even if they're total queens.

[Captain Verd]

Cat of Ice

Captain Verd

Cat of Ice

Gender is your reproductive systems, simple as that.

Ugh no, this is talking about psychological gender, as it's usually used it these sorts of discussions. Physical sex =/= psychological gender. Please keep that in mind so people don't just facepalm at you and s**t.

I know that I'm going to get yelled at for this, but I'm going to post anyway.

Thinking you are a girl does not make you a girl if you have male parts. You can be a male who dresses and acts like a girl, but you are still not a girl.

It's just like if tell myself I am a garden gnome, and convince myself I am, but that does not change the fact I am not physicaly a garden gnome.

Jesus god, please go get educated and come back. Or just don't come back; that's acceptable too.

[Seraph of Thursday]

1) If you did the test, which you probably won't, where did you think you'd score, and where did you actually score?
I tried, then ADD'd out. I'm not overly good at official guidelines, but even worse when they involve mathematics, and especially when they're official, involve mathematics and are in English. I've taken a for fun test over at an trans support webpage three times(?), and I've always settled somewhere near the androgynous center, usually on the masculine side but once on the feminine side as well.

2) Do you think this test is complete bullshit like I do? Why or why not?
Yes, because gender isn't tied to stereotypes.

3) If this test is boosh, how can gender be determined?
Assuming "boosh" means "bullshit" - not by tests, that's for certain. I'm not sure. In fact, I visited a nurse working at a clinic treating transsexuals just yesterday, and we spoke of this issue. She told me that when she started working there, she was faced with a patient and had to ask them "Well, how do you know you're X?"
Immediately afterwards, she had thought - how can I be certain I'm Y, then?
If it was as simple as taking a test, life would be easier. But it's not. The experience of gender, especially when mixed together with the experience of gender roles and physical sex as well as the expectations of oneself and the society, is highly individual. For one, gender is strictly what is between your legs. For the other, gender is something far more complex than that. For another, it's some of this, some of that, and some chocolate sauce on top. Gender is a part of who you are, and who you are is a part of how you're build and how you're socialized, how you experience the world, yourself and others.
Takes a crapload more than numbers to figure it out.

4)Am I overthinking this?
Yes.

[MissSweet77]

Oblivion Blades

1) If you did the test, which you probably won't, where did you think you'd score, and where did you actually score?
I tried, then ADD'd out. I'm not overly good at official guidelines, but even worse when they involve mathematics, and especially when they're official, involve mathematics and are in English. I've taken a for fun test over at an trans support webpage three times(?), and I've always settled somewhere near the androgynous center, usually on the masculine side but once on the feminine side as well.

2) Do you think this test is complete bullshit like I do? Why or why not?
Yes, because gender isn't tied to stereotypes.

3) If this test is boosh, how can gender be determined?
Assuming "boosh" means "bullshit" - not by tests, that's for certain. I'm not sure. In fact, I visited a nurse working at a clinic treating transsexuals just yesterday, and we spoke of this issue. She told me that when she started working there, she was faced with a patient and had to ask them "Well, how do you know you're X?"
Immediately afterwards, she had thought - how can I be certain I'm Y, then?
If it was as simple as taking a test, life would be easier. But it's not. The experience of gender, especially when mixed together with the experience of gender roles and physical sex as well as the expectations of oneself and the society, is highly individual. For one, gender is strictly what is between your legs. For the other, gender is something far more complex than that. For another, it's some of this, some of that, and some chocolate sauce on top. Gender is a part of who you are, and who you are is a part of how you're build and how you're socialized, how you experience the world, yourself and others.
Takes a crapload more than numbers to figure it out.

4)Am I overthinking this?
Yes.

Shiiit, you make it sound like I underthought it.

[Seraph of Thursday]

MissSweet77

Shiiit, you make it sound like I underthought it.

Haha, don't feel bad about it. I used two years of my life hardly doing anything other than trying to figure gender out.
Spoiler: I didn't figure it out, but at least I came out a little wiser.

[DixInMe]

i got -19 and i am a female so the test is accurate for me