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Mika Talanis
GunsmithKitten
Mika Talanis


Really the problem is that you are eating the flesh of your fellow animal. See, a core belief is that all members of the animal kingdom are the same. No one species is better than the other. As a result, its the eating of their flesh that we're opposed to. There are those who are opposed to the entire idea of killing, and I admit there was a time when I thought of it in a similar way, but its more the inhumane slaughter from mass production. Still its more about the eating than the killing. In my mind, at least, its no different than going to your neighbor's house and cutting off a chunk of him to fry up.


Animals are not my neighbors.



Really? Where do you live, the polar ice cap where there isn't another living soul for hundreds of miles, regardless of species?

If they live in the city than the animals most likely aren't their neighbors and were most likely bred outside of the city, actually, which is the case for the majority of people.
do you not know the definition of neighbor?
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Or did you just fail science miserably and have no clue that homo sapiens are members of the animal kingdom and as such are animals?
it's not very polite to insult someone who was trying to have a civilized conversation with you.

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GunsmithKitten
They have no issue tearing other animals limb from limb, injecting venom into them before eating them whole, or crushing them.


This is irrelevant. Other animals do not have the higher brain function to understand that what they are doing to each other is unacceptable.

We are animals, as you said before, and that means that we have just as much right to follow our instincts as other animals. our instincts push us towards survival. if we don't eat as our instincts tell us, we'll die. eating animals is no worse than eating plants as I said in my last post, and we've got to eat something. animals are a part of our natural diet and have been for a long time.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

Mika Talanis
Suicidesoldier#1
Mika Talanis
Suicidesoldier#1
Mika Talanis
Suicidesoldier#1


Isn't the whole problem with eating animals that you're... killing them?

I mean that's not all vegetarians but that's a lot of them.



Really the problem is that you are eating the flesh of your fellow animal. See, a core belief is that all members of the animal kingdom are the same. No one species is better than the other. As a result, its the eating of their flesh that we're opposed to. There are those who are opposed to the entire idea of killing, and I admit there was a time when I thought of it in a similar way, but its more the inhumane slaughter from mass production. Still its more about the eating than the killing. In my mind, at least, its no different than going to your neighbor's house and cutting off a chunk of him to fry up.


So... killing animals for fun is no problem, but eating them is?



Sure, as long as you're fine with that being applied to all animals, humans included.

I'm also guessing you didn't really read. I didn't it is not ever at all related to killing another animal. I said its more in regards to the eating of their flesh. I cannot speak for all, which is why I made it clear that this was my view, I am morally opposed to mass production and slaughter, and have stated that hunting them and buying from a local farmer is more acceptable to me.


The most dangerous game.

Man. ninja



I have to admit that made me laugh.


Hehe. xp

I do try sometimes. xp
prof-whoriarty
Mika Talanis
prof-whoriarty
Mika Talanis
The concepts are not connected. Its not 'a taking of a life', its 'eating of another member of the animal kingdom'.
are you implying that if we were to go out and kill every animal we see but not use the meat that that would be okay?
doesn't that seem like a waste of a life?
shouldn't you put it to use if it's going to die?

He was asking about the stance on abortion.

and humans, according to you, are on equal planes to one another, meaning that if you're okay with killing human fetuses than you should be fine with killing other animals as long as we're not eating them, since that's your problem with it apparently.



I've stated I do not take much issue with those who do so humanely, more than once. Just because I choose to not consume meat, and choose to vilify the mass production and inhumane killing that goes hand in hand with it, in no way means I am vilifying those who do consume meat.

prof-whoriarty
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For many its not about the killing, its the eating of your neighbor.

they're not our neighbor.



Yes, they are, unless you live on a polar ice cap where there isn't another living thing for hundreds of miles.


prof-whoriarty
I have no emotional connection with the chicken that I'm currently cooking as I reply to you. this chicken never lived near me, I never spoke to it, I have no way of communicating with it at all.



I have no emotional connection with someone living a block away from my home. By this reasoning it would be perfectly acceptable for me to go shoot them in their bed, yes?


prof-whoriarty
it was literally born to die so that way we could consume it.



I have already stated that I am morally opposed to mass production.


prof-whoriarty
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You wouldn't go to your neighbor's home and cut a piece off of him to fry up,

I ******** hate my neighbors, actually. If I were starving and for some reason there was no food left anywhere other than our fellow man, my neighbors would be the first to be on a frying pan.


I am not referring to extremes where you are the last living souls on the planet, so please do not use such unrealistic scenarios.


prof-whoriarty
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so why would you do it to another member of the animal kingdom?

because it's the circle of life, we've got to eat. Plants are alive as well and there have been studies done that showed that they have emotions just the same as animals [source]. If I chose to not eat anything else out of remorse then I'd literally die of starvation. humans need to eat, bottom line.
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Yes for some its a combination of the two, but usually the moral opposition comes from the fact that they are killed inhumanely and they are made to suffer.

they aren't human, so why should we go out of the way to treat them humanely?



So you think someone should be allowed to let their pets starve to death and die of thirst and nothing should be done to the owner? After all, that dog isn't a human so who cares if its starved to death. Who cares if its beaten, mutilated, and lives a life of extreme suffering.


prof-whoriarty
Have you ever worked on a farm that breeds animals to eat them? I've personally helped my friend clean her pig pen (she's feeding them to fatten them up before they're sold for slaughter to make her school money for funds) and let me tell you, it's a pain in the a** to get it halfway decent seeming. pampering them while they're alive would take far too much energy, especially considering how many animals usually are in a place like that. it's a lot of ******** work and takes a lot of time and energy that most people just don't have. you've got to be realistic.


So you are making the claim now that there has always been mass production? That in the earlier times, before the industrial revolution, they had huge plants where animals were crammed together, beaten, abused, living with festering sores, and living in deplorable conditions? You're going to have to prove that one.

Yes, I have worked in such a situation. I grew up helping on neighboring farms


prof-whoriarty
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When comparing that with say abortion it doesn't fit because there is no suffering involved.

you're right, it's just murdering a fellow human being right before it has the chance to have a life of its own.


No, its not 'murdering' anything. Please learn what a legal definition is and use it accordingly.

prof-whoriarty

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Personally i don't really take issue with those who hunt their own food or buy from local farmers, because the animals are treated properly.

No they aren't treated very well at local farms.


See above. I disagree with you as my experiences show otherwise.

prof-whoriarty
and I'd like to know why you're okay with hunting, just out of curiosity?


Because you are usually killing the animal with a single shot, so it isn't being killed inhumanely. It is not going to suffer. My moral opposition is towards the inhumane treatment and suffering that comes from mass production. I've stated that repeatedly.
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
I find it hilarious that these same people are often vocally atheist, and have rageboners to call out religious folks trying to force their moralities on others.

Oh, partiality.

Moral of the story, if you get insulted by a vegan for eating meat, ask them what their stance on abortion is. Watch them squirm.



Why would a vegan squirm over that? Since when do humans eat their aborted fetuses?
Does it not strike you as hypocritical to lash out at people for killing animals, yet still scoff at pro lifers?



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.


Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
I find it hilarious that these same people are often vocally atheist, and have rageboners to call out religious folks trying to force their moralities on others.

Oh, partiality.

Moral of the story, if you get insulted by a vegan for eating meat, ask them what their stance on abortion is. Watch them squirm.



Why would a vegan squirm over that? Since when do humans eat their aborted fetuses?
Does it not strike you as hypocritical to lash out at people for killing animals, yet still scoff at pro lifers?



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.
How do you know what does and does not suffer?


Quote:
Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Please tell me at any point where I made such a generalization?
prof-whoriarty
Mika Talanis
GunsmithKitten
Mika Talanis


Really the problem is that you are eating the flesh of your fellow animal. See, a core belief is that all members of the animal kingdom are the same. No one species is better than the other. As a result, its the eating of their flesh that we're opposed to. There are those who are opposed to the entire idea of killing, and I admit there was a time when I thought of it in a similar way, but its more the inhumane slaughter from mass production. Still its more about the eating than the killing. In my mind, at least, its no different than going to your neighbor's house and cutting off a chunk of him to fry up.


Animals are not my neighbors.



Really? Where do you live, the polar ice cap where there isn't another living soul for hundreds of miles, regardless of species?

If they live in the city than the animals most likely aren't their neighbors and were most likely bred outside of the city, actually, which is the case for the majority of people.
do you not know the definition of neighbor?



What city do you live in where there is no animal life beyond homo sapiens? There are no canines? No felines? No birds? No rodents?

prof-whoriarty
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Or did you just fail science miserably and have no clue that homo sapiens are members of the animal kingdom and as such are animals?
it's not very polite to insult someone who was trying to have a civilized conversation with you.


Except that she wasn't trying to have a polite conversation. Her very first post in here was vilifying all vegans as crazies who want to preform global genocide and her response to me was snide. I treat those the way they treat others. She has given me no reason to be polite to her.

prof-whoriarty
Quote:
GunsmithKitten
They have no issue tearing other animals limb from limb, injecting venom into them before eating them whole, or crushing them.


This is irrelevant. Other animals do not have the higher brain function to understand that what they are doing to each other is unacceptable.

We are animals, as you said before, and that means that we have just as much right to follow our instincts as other animals.



Did you completely miss the bold?
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
I find it hilarious that these same people are often vocally atheist, and have rageboners to call out religious folks trying to force their moralities on others.

Oh, partiality.

Moral of the story, if you get insulted by a vegan for eating meat, ask them what their stance on abortion is. Watch them squirm.



Why would a vegan squirm over that? Since when do humans eat their aborted fetuses?
Does it not strike you as hypocritical to lash out at people for killing animals, yet still scoff at pro lifers?



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.
How do you know what does and does not suffer?


Because science has proven that the fetus is incapable of suffering until the nervous system and brain are fully developed and functioning, which does not happen until around the 28th week of gestation.


As for those animals in mass production, there is enough documented evidence that they suffer immense pain and are killed inhumanely, often not dying right away but dying a slow and painful death.


False Dichotomy
Quote:
Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Please tell me at any point where I made such a generalization?



The bold in your sentence. 'Don't you think its hypocritical to lash out at people who eat meat but scoff at pro lifers'. It might not be the way you meant it but that's how it came out; as a generalization.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis



Why would a vegan squirm over that? Since when do humans eat their aborted fetuses?
Does it not strike you as hypocritical to lash out at people for killing animals, yet still scoff at pro lifers?



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.
How do you know what does and does not suffer?


Because science has proven that the fetus is incapable of suffering until the nervous system and brain are fully developed and functioning, which does not happen until around the 28th week of gestation.
Something not having a central nervous system doesn't mean it can't experience pain in various ways. It's still multicellular life. No, if it doesn't have at least a partially developed brain, it won't suffer from nerve pain, but that says nothing of the other kinds of trauma it can experience, even without a central nervous system.

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As for those animals in mass production, there is enough documented evidence that they suffer immense pain and are killed inhumanely, often not dying right away but dying a slow and painful death.
Not really debating that. I'm not a fan of our food industry either.

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False Dichotomy
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Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Please tell me at any point where I made such a generalization?
The bold in your sentence. 'Don't you think its hypocritical to lash out at people who eat meat but scoff at pro lifers'. It might not be the way you meant it but that's how it came out; as a generalization.
Context, yo.

I'm not responsible for how you read things. I'm responsible for my side, and it's not a generalization if you are so semantically inclined to reexamine my exact diction.
GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

Mika Talanis


Really? Where do you live, the polar ice cap where there isn't another living soul for hundreds of miles, regardless of species? Or did you just fail science miserably and have no clue that homo sapiens are members of the animal kingdom and as such are animals?


Neighbor =/= someone I happen to share a space or a species designation with.

A neighbor is a comrade. A neighbor is someone who'll consider an assault on my land and my body to be an assault on their own and will take up arms to defend with me. A neighbor is someone who'll give up time and convinence to help one in need.

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This is irrelevant. Other animals do not have the higher brain function to understand that what they are doing to each other is unacceptable.


BUt you do say it's unacceptable even for predatory animals to eat meat?
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Does it not strike you as hypocritical to lash out at people for killing animals, yet still scoff at pro lifers?



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.
How do you know what does and does not suffer?


Because science has proven that the fetus is incapable of suffering until the nervous system and brain are fully developed and functioning, which does not happen until around the 28th week of gestation.
Something not having a central nervous system doesn't mean it can't experience pain in various ways. It's still multicellular life. No, if it doesn't have at least a partially developed brain, it won't suffer from nerve pain, but that says nothing of the other kinds of trauma it can experience, even without a central nervous system.



I'm sorry but I'm going to believe scientific studies over the opinion of some random stranger on the internet. As I stated, science has proven that the fetus does not experience pain until well after the time elective abortions are legal (at least inside the US, I am unfamiliar with all abortion laws in all countries).

False Dichotomy
Quote:
As for those animals in mass production, there is enough documented evidence that they suffer immense pain and are killed inhumanely, often not dying right away but dying a slow and painful death.
Not really debating that. I'm not a fan of our food industry either.


At least we can agree on something then.

False Dichotomy
Quote:
False Dichotomy
Quote:
Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Please tell me at any point where I made such a generalization?
The bold in your sentence. 'Don't you think its hypocritical to lash out at people who eat meat but scoff at pro lifers'. It might not be the way you meant it but that's how it came out; as a generalization.
Context, yo.

I'm not responsible for how you read things. I'm responsible for my side, and it's not a generalization if you are so semantically inclined to reexamine my exact diction.



Yes, it is a generalization, but I can see now you will vehemently deny it.
GunsmithKitten
Mika Talanis


Really? Where do you live, the polar ice cap where there isn't another living soul for hundreds of miles, regardless of species? Or did you just fail science miserably and have no clue that homo sapiens are members of the animal kingdom and as such are animals?


Neighbor =/= someone I happen to share a space or a species designation with.

A neighbor is a comrade. A neighbor is someone who'll consider an assault on my land and my body to be an assault on their own and will take up arms to defend with me. A neighbor is someone who'll give up time and convinence to help one in need.


In what world do you live in where this is the case? Honestly, it is not the real world. here in the real world, your neighbor could care less, usually, as long as its not happening to them. Oh sure some will care, but this belief that everyone who lives around you is oh so caring about the fates of everyone else is naive and a bit delusional. How many times do we hear reports of people ignoring the screams coming from their neighbors home because its 'not my business'?


Besides that, when one looks at the actual definition of the word (not your made up definition), none of those things are part of the word.

Quote:

neigh·bor (nbr)
n.
1. One who lives near or next to another.
2. A person, place, or thing adjacent to or located near another.
3. A fellow human.
4. Used as a form of familiar address.
v. neigh·bored, neigh·bor·ing, neigh·bors
v.tr.
To lie close to or border directly on.
v.intr.
To live or be situated close by.
adj.
Situated or living near another: a neighbor state.
Link


Words have definitions for a reason. You can't go and make up your own based on what you believe and have it be right. A neighbor is simply someone or something that lives near you. Unless you live in the polar ice caps where there isn't another living thing for hundreds of miles, you are full of it.


False Dichotomy
Quote:
This is irrelevant. Other animals do not have the higher brain function to understand that what they are doing to each other is unacceptable.


But you do say it's unacceptable even for predatory animals to eat meat?



Yes I find it unacceptable due to the suffering that the prey endures. I would think that was abundantly clear since I have stated repeatedly I am morally opposed to inhumane suffering.
Also, at the person who said 'Animals aren't human so why should we treat them humanly?' I think you need to brush up on definitions of words as well. Humanely =/= humanly. Just because the words are similar in spelling doesn't mean they mean the same thing.


Quote:

n·hu·mane (nhy-mn)
adj.
Lacking pity or compassion.
inhu·manely adv.

Thesaurus:
Adj. 1. inhumane - lacking and reflecting lack of pity or compassion; "humans are innately inhumane; this explains much of the misery and suffering in the world"; "biological weapons are considered too inhumane to be used"
painful - causing physical or psychological pain; "worked with painful slowness"
humane - marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering


Synonyms:
cruel, savage, brutal, severe, harsh, grim, unkind, heartless, atrocious, unsympathetic, hellish, depraved, barbarous, pitiless, unfeeling, uncompassionate He was kept in inhumane conditions.
Link
Dezga 34527's avatar

Partying Lunatic

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Mika Talanis
Dezga 34527
Mika Talanis
GunsmithKitten
You think that's the worst thing Vegans have come up with?

They're apparently planning genocide.<rest removed for space> .



Since you've chosen to lump all Vegans into one category, aka crazies, shall we do that for all homosexuals, all Christians, all Muslims? All Christians are nutcases who go picket funerals screaming about how just it is for babies to be gunned down in their classrooms. All Muslims commit jihad and were behind 9/11. And all homosexuals sleep with anything and everything and are riddled with every STD known to man.


Yeah, that's how stupid and bigoted you sound right now.

go to the morality and religious forum, cuz that's what they do there. people are idiots.



You didn't actually read what was said did you?

i did. the way the chick you quoted classified vegans is the way the people in the morality and religion forum classify each other.
GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

Mika Talanis



Yes I find it unacceptable due to the suffering that the prey endures. I would think that was abundantly clear since I have stated repeatedly I am morally opposed to inhumane suffering.


Then it's nature it'self you have a problem with. Nature doesn't give a ******** what you think about the poor little mouse in the snake's mouth. And unlike the rattlesnake or leopard, I'll at least hear you out.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis
False Dichotomy
Mika Talanis



No, because as I have stated, the killing for me is in regards to it being inhumane and accompanied by suffering. A fetus feels no suffering so they are not comparable to me.
How do you know what does and does not suffer?


Because science has proven that the fetus is incapable of suffering until the nervous system and brain are fully developed and functioning, which does not happen until around the 28th week of gestation.
Something not having a central nervous system doesn't mean it can't experience pain in various ways. It's still multicellular life. No, if it doesn't have at least a partially developed brain, it won't suffer from nerve pain, but that says nothing of the other kinds of trauma it can experience, even without a central nervous system.



I'm sorry but I'm going to believe scientific studies over the opinion of some random stranger on the internet. As I stated, science has proven that the fetus does not experience pain until well after the time elective abortions are legal (at least inside the US, I am unfamiliar with all abortion laws in all countries).
Sigh... this is going nowhere fast.

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False Dichotomy
Quote:
False Dichotomy
Quote:
Not to mention you're generalizing and claiming that all vegans do this. Please show me where I even once lashed out at people for killing animals.
Please tell me at any point where I made such a generalization?
The bold in your sentence. 'Don't you think its hypocritical to lash out at people who eat meat but scoff at pro lifers'. It might not be the way you meant it but that's how it came out; as a generalization.
Context, yo.

I'm not responsible for how you read things. I'm responsible for my side, and it's not a generalization if you are so semantically inclined to reexamine my exact diction.



Yes, it is a generalization, but I can see now you will vehemently deny it.
I could say your whole shtick is a racist poke at black people, but unless I provide evidence to the claim, it just ends up making me look like an idiot.

So how about you provide evidence to the silly claim you made?

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