Illogical Atheistic World

[Petrograd]

anonymous attributes

N3bu

anonymous attributes

Did you say it is perfectly reasonable to deny God?

Yes. I don't believe in God. There is nothing unreasonable about that.

anonymous attributes

So who or what decides for the atheist group what is ultimately true or false or moral or moral? or evidence or not evidence, or proof or not proof, or what do you have that makes these "ultimate" choices for you?

A, "Atheist Group" is incorrect. Despite what some idiots may lead you to believe, nothing inherit to Atheism creates group think.

B, Atheism doesn't have "Ultimate" choices because it has no deity of supreme entity to decide them. Atheism doesn't even make these choices, these things are what they are and individuals choose to accept or deny that based on their perception of reality.

yep, well said.

Ah, good. You already touched this.

There are many different religious beliefs, many of which don't fit into the main mold but that still are religious beliefs.

*Some believe in a god (or gods), as their respective church recommends.
*Some believe in the same god (or gods) as a main church believs in, but think the church is wrong on how one is supposed to follow that god.
*Some believe in several gods, from different religions.
*Some don't particularily follow any god, but think there probably is a god out there.
*Some don't believe in any god, but accept that there may be a god out there.
*Some don't believe in any god and are confident there isn't any god out there.

I used to belong in the last group, which meant I was a gnostic atheist. Nowadays I'm in the second-to-last group, which means I'm an agnostic atheist.

I don't really care if there's a god out there or not, it's not a matter of importance to me. If there is one, they are not central in my life.

I have little in common with people who think they're good people just because they think they follow their own religion, even when they believe that religion tells them to hate people.

I also have little in common with people who are on a crusade to tell people not to believe in religion, trying to 'turn' religious people.

If you rely on your religion for morals, then I really hope you picked a good religion, for most of them out there can be pretty harsh on people. I prefer to follow my own moral beliefs, that I can find out by listening to myself carefully.

(Wanting to meet 'the big guy' of atheism made me think you'd like to meet the 'Atheist Pope'... I'm sure that's not what you meant, but the idea was funny nonetheless xD)

[anonymous attributes]

Petrograd

anonymous attributes

N3bu

anonymous attributes

Did you say it is perfectly reasonable to deny God?

Yes. I don't believe in God. There is nothing unreasonable about that.

anonymous attributes

So who or what decides for the atheist group what is ultimately true or false or moral or moral? or evidence or not evidence, or proof or not proof, or what do you have that makes these "ultimate" choices for you?

A, "Atheist Group" is incorrect. Despite what some idiots may lead you to believe, nothing inherit to Atheism creates group think.

B, Atheism doesn't have "Ultimate" choices because it has no deity of supreme entity to decide them. Atheism doesn't even make these choices, these things are what they are and individuals choose to accept or deny that based on their perception of reality.

yep, well said.

Ah, good. You already touched this.

There are many different religious beliefs, many of which don't fit into the main mold but that still are religious beliefs.

*Some believe in a god (or gods), as their respective church recommends.
*Some believe in the same god (or gods) as a main church believs in, but think the church is wrong on how one is supposed to follow that god.
*Some believe in several gods, from different religions.
*Some don't particularily follow any god, but think there probably is a god out there.
*Some don't believe in any god, but accept that there may be a god out there.
*Some don't believe in any god and are confident there isn't any god out there.

I used to belong in the last group, which meant I was a gnostic atheist. Nowadays I'm in the second-to-last group, which means I'm an agnostic atheist.

I don't really care if there's a god out there or not, it's not a matter of importance to me. If there is one, they are not central in my life.

I have little in common with people who think they're good people just because they think they follow their own religion, even when they believe that religion tells them to hate people.

I also have little in common with people who are on a crusade to tell people not to believe in religion, trying to 'turn' religious people.

If you rely on your religion for morals, then I really hope you picked a good religion, for most of them out there can be pretty harsh on people. I prefer to follow my own moral beliefs, that I can find out by listening to myself carefully.

(Wanting to meet 'the big guy' of atheism made me think you'd like to meet the 'Atheist Pope'... I'm sure that's not what you meant, but the idea was funny nonetheless xD)

Yes, the atheist pope. So far I haven't met em here. At least if I have, he is shorter then I expected.

[erstwhile foe]

No atheist should yet claim to know the whole truth; that is an unscientific standpoint. However it is reasonable to suggest that the truth, or at least some major parts of whatever fundamental truth is present in our universe(s), is knowable through science. Further, we already have a decent enough grasp of many fields of science to make well constructed hypotheses (read: well-educated guesses) about some parts of the truth of our universe(s). I posted this in your other thread, and it's an answer that I still stand by.

erstwhile foe

Well... Truth is a complicated idea.
While what we experience from day to day is merely a representation constructed by our brains such that we can interact with the world, it could be argued that there is some fundamental truth in the mathematics that we use to describe the universe and it's parts.
Though math is a language of symbols, the symbols can be made to represent actual 'somethings,' rather than abstract concepts, which can be manipulated by playing with those symbols.

This is called physics.

Broadening this idea, chemistry can be said to be based on physics, biology on chemistry, and psychology on biology (although psychology is a bit iffy at times). In this way any science can eventually be connected to physics and mathematics:

geology -> chemistry -> physics -> math

So, it's reasonable to say that through continued efforts, our scientific understanding of the universe as represented by symbols will begin to resemble truth more and more, regardless of what field of study you're in.

No science (with the exception of so-called "creation science" ) has yet offered 'god' as the only solution to the problems we see in our modern understanding of reality. While our understanding may be imperfect, there are still many options to explore before the scientific community must seriously consider an idea as inelegant and unverifiable as that of (a) god(s).

Note/Edit: I'm well aware that many atheists don't like to see their atheism linked so strongly to science. Understand that science is the root of my own personal atheism, so I explored it as a way to express any fundamental truths that may exist.

[Petrograd]

anonymous attributes

Yes, the atheist pope. So far I haven't met em here. At least if I have, he is shorter then I expected.

It may be good to know I so far have been equally unsuccessful in finding the Catholic Pope here. We can consider it a draw. Admittedly my endevours to meet the pope(s) have been considerably less extensive than yours so far.

Well, any religious pope really, but that's the one I'd heard of before.

[Tee the Wicked]

Blood Valkyrie

Tee the Wicked

I think athiests and religious folks should learn to get along and stop demanding each other to prove this or disprove that. Faith is faith, whether it is of a higher power, or of a lack thereof.

Faith is a sort of belief.
A lack of belief cannot be faith, because there is no belief.

Ah, but there is belief in athiesm. The belief that there is no god/higher power, the belief that there is a logical and/or scientific explanation for everything, etc. I would I would think, as well, that one with athiest beliefs has faith that those beliefs are correct.

Call it what you will, that's just how I see it.

[anonymous attributes]

Petrograd

anonymous attributes

Yes, the atheist pope. So far I haven't met em here. At least if I have, he is shorter then I expected.

It may be good to know I so far have been equally unsuccessful in finding the Catholic Pope here. We can consider it a draw. Admittedly my endevours to meet the pope(s) have been considerably less extensive than yours so far.

Well, any religious pope really, but that's the one I'd heard of before.

You are in favor in disproving a religion?

Do not mistake me, we do not have the same endeavor, I am in favor of logic only here, that is my argument, not religion.

And no, we do not have a draw even if this was something religious.

[Petrograd]

anonymous attributes

Petrograd

anonymous attributes

Yes, the atheist pope. So far I haven't met em here. At least if I have, he is shorter then I expected.

It may be good to know I so far have been equally unsuccessful in finding the Catholic Pope here. We can consider it a draw. Admittedly my endevours to meet the pope(s) have been considerably less extensive than yours so far.

Well, any religious pope really, but that's the one I'd heard of before.

You are in favor in disproving a religion?

Do not mistake me, we do not have the same endeavor, I am in favor of logic only here, that is my argument, not religion.

And no, we do not have a draw even if this was something religious.

No... I'm not interested in disproving religion - neither from a scientific standpoint, nor from a humanitarian.

If you start from a philosophical point of view, you can easily prove that people know hardly anything for certain. Descarte's "I think, therefore I am" is sort of how far some would feel comfortable making assumptions about reality from their own perception there of.

You can argue from a scientific standpoint that the lack of evidence of religion implies a disproof, but that's a logical fallacy.

While I feel sound in my decision not to spend my life following a religion, I can see that there are people who benefit from their religion. I think many forget the purpose of the religion and try too hard to fulfill specific targets (feeling satisfied having given aid or whatnot) but forget central things like loving others and not judging them. Nevertheless, there are "strays" who've been led in the right direction by religion, and that I appreciate.

Given how sensitive people are to having to make new realizations (and challenge their own preconceived ideas) I'm sure it'd be a huge hassle to take care of all the followers if they suddenly found out that there unambigiously was no god.

I bet quite a few atheists would react the same if there was an unambigious proof that there was a god.

[1aphy]

anonymous attributes

As is demonstrated in my thread, and in daily life as I see it, the atheists voice answer well as far as what is "truth" and that in their atheistic world, they don't really have or know it ultimately and that it is subjective. If they do say there is absolutes and we can know truth ultimately, that is a subjective viewpoint.

Why then are all the hypocrites bashing or trying to deny God or trying to debase or interpret Christian scriptures while they themselves believe in subjective truth if they were logically speaking? If you believe in subjective truth, it is illogical to absolutely deny God or for you to tell any Christian what scripture means, especially if you aren't a Christian at all. You Atheists have illogical arguments.


I challenge any atheist here to present me with a logical argument refuting what ive said.

I challenge any atheist on gaia to prove to me otherwise.

The illogical, hypocritical atheist system of belief of subjective morality and truth will not get passed me, and this thread demonstrates that (to all who have answered) demonstrates just what Ive been saying, and that atheistic argument amount to nothing if there is no ultimate truth or morality, logically speaking.

The argument for atheism is basically occham's razor, which is grand claims require grand evidence, and the existence of an almighty creator that's in all places at once is a pretty grand claim, while the scriptures are pretty feeble evidence.

so yes, the existence of god is essentially unknowable, so atheists just prefer to say it doesn't exist rather than make things up like many religions do. i respect the scriptures and the people that use them in their daily lives, but i have no respect for people that use them as a way to have authority over others because the scriptures are 'god's word'. God's word? Ya right... rolleyes

[anonymous attributes]

1aphy

anonymous attributes

As is demonstrated in my thread, and in daily life as I see it, the atheists voice answer well as far as what is "truth" and that in their atheistic world, they don't really have or know it ultimately and that it is subjective. If they do say there is absolutes and we can know truth ultimately, that is a subjective viewpoint.

Why then are all the hypocrites bashing or trying to deny God or trying to debase or interpret Christian scriptures while they themselves believe in subjective truth if they were logically speaking? If you believe in subjective truth, it is illogical to absolutely deny God or for you to tell any Christian what scripture means, especially if you aren't a Christian at all. You Atheists have illogical arguments.


I challenge any atheist here to present me with a logical argument refuting what ive said.

I challenge any atheist on gaia to prove to me otherwise.

The illogical, hypocritical atheist system of belief of subjective morality and truth will not get passed me, and this thread demonstrates that (to all who have answered) demonstrates just what Ive been saying, and that atheistic argument amount to nothing if there is no ultimate truth or morality, logically speaking.

The argument for atheism is basically occham's razor, which is grand claims require grand evidence, and the existence of an almighty creator that's in all places at once is a pretty grand claim, while the scriptures are pretty feeble evidence.

so yes, the existence of god is essentially unknowable, so atheists just prefer to say it doesn't exist rather than make things up like many religions do. i respect the scriptures and the people that use them in their daily lives, but i have no respect for people that use them as a way to have authority over others because the scriptures are 'god's word'. God's word? Ya right... rolleyes

thats great..

[Blood Valkyrie]

Tee the Wicked

Blood Valkyrie

Tee the Wicked

I think athiests and religious folks should learn to get along and stop demanding each other to prove this or disprove that. Faith is faith, whether it is of a higher power, or of a lack thereof.

Faith is a sort of belief.
A lack of belief cannot be faith, because there is no belief.

Ah, but there is belief in athiesm. The belief that there is no god/higher power, the belief that there is a logical and/or scientific explanation for everything, etc. I would I would think, as well, that one with athiest beliefs has faith that those beliefs are correct.

Call it what you will, that's just how I see it.

Atheism itself is a lack of a belief. I know it's confusing. I used to be confused too. Just because you lack a belief in something, doesn't mean you believe that something does not exist. Some Atheists claim they know a god does not exist, but a lot of Atheists simply claim to lack a belief and not know.

I do not believe that there is a magical, pink, rainbow pooping, bologna sandwich eating, invisible unicorn floating around Saturn, but I admit there is a chance that it might be there. However, until I have significant evidence to prove that this weird thing is in fact there, I will not believe in it.

That's how a lot of Atheists are about gods, and it requires no faith.

By the way, not all Atheists put their complete trust in science or logic. See Buddhism for example. There are even Atheists who love them some fake-a** pseudo-science, which is bullshit pretending to be science.

[Ryuna Kanjo]

anonymous attributes

GSK Lives

Nah, I just believe your god is evil and the entities I pray to are not only far more benevolent, but more powerful as well. You can keep your Hebrew desert war god, partner. I got something more fulfilling for me.

So be it. That is your God given free will.

I see also your entity has not shown you to help me see your all powerful entity either, does it have no influence with you?

Mighty entity indeed.

I can't see YOUR entity, so yours must not be so hot either. Mm.

In the end, Religion is "my imaginary friend is better than yours." I'm agnostic myself, I've never seen any proof or had any reason to believe in a deity. They could be there, but they may very well also not be there. Tbh Religion contradicts itself too much to be stomached.

I don't dismiss the idea either. I put tons of stock in science and evolution, and reject the Bible's claims (blah blah, women made from a rib, etc). At the same time though there could be an omnipresent hippie that is ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe, or multiple gods that are responsible for certain aspects of life.

[Erholung]

I don’t study religion. I don’t have a religion. I’ll ask questions and I will point of problems I have with things that don’t make sense to me, but I don’t make it a habit to try to disprove a religion or convert anyone into anything.

But generally, if something can be tested time and time again for evidence of proof (or at least suffice knowledge for the time being) then I see that as being something more substantial than the Bible or invisible spirits.

Also, about the whole “it is illogical to absolutely deny God or for you to tell any Christian what scripture means, especially if you aren't a Christian at all” thing is pretty ridiculous. My fiancé studied the religion, scriptures, read the Bible and a bunch other stuff for eight years or more while being a Christian and leaving Christianity. There are people who like to study these things without being the religion or faith, atheist or otherwise.

[Rebeldoomer]

Science > Religion

emotion_awesome

[0lexis]

It seems you have a misunderstanding of the term "Atheist".

Atheists do not necessarily make a positive claim that a deity does not exist. Rather, they reject your claim that a deity does exist.

It's a lack of belief in a deity, rather than a positive belief that there is no deity.

As I'm not making any positive claims, I have nothing to demonstrate or present to you.

However, as you believe in a deity, if you wish to convince me your deity exists, you must first demonstrate that it, in fact, does.

If you wish to have meaningful conversations with people, you'd do well to not blanket-label them, and recognize that "atheist" just means the rejection of deistic claims. Everything else is an entirely separate issue (morality, evolution, abiogenesis). These topics have nothing to do with atheism, and you're using them as a distraction, a red herring.

[HeartJacker13]

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

Please, dear Christian who knows everything, interpret this.